delcbr

hi iam thinking about getting a saxo vts or a 106 gti but the vts is cheaper so iam looking at getting one of these instead.

what year did they bring out the mk2 and mk3 vts and what were the changes?.....

anything to look out for like leaking sunroofs...warped brake discs.. gearbox..etc.............?

whats better the mk1 or mk2? i remember reading in a car mag that some of the engines used hydraulic lifters and then changed over to solid lifters but i cant remember which year the change over took place is there a better engine to choose over?

any more info would be great cheers.

Topbombingkid

Great little cars but for christ sake dont crash 1 they come apart like paper. not well built at all.

Face lift was 99-00 i think and there was only a mk1 and 2 no mk 3 as far as im aware. great little cars go well 120bhp parts are cheap not a great deal to worry bout with them. ur best bet is to go on saxo owners club like saxspeariance <(spelling) and ask there.

EvoBarry

Saxo rides harder than the Pug106 but I believe the Pug is regarded as the better handler overall. More second hand choice with the Saxo though as Citreon were practically giving them away for most of its life.

My g/f has a 106Gti and its fantastic fun, and pretty rapid across country too imho.

scooby_matt

Don't be so sure.
I rolled a VTR 3 times at 70 mph in my youth and walked away with minor cuts and bruises.
Not something i'd recommend but i'm still here .

goonerbear

Just got rid of my 2000 VTS MK11, for a WRX, nice little car but build quality poor, parts from main dealers can be very expensive. Mine had the original alloys on and i had great difficulty getting them balanced due to the design of the centres, had to go to Citroen first time (Expensive) would'nt balance unless i got the tyres from them.Dont know if the situation has improved since.Did'nt half drink petrol.

Mike123

Interesting views and experiences here.
We had a T-reg VTS from new to about 35k miles . We tried the 106Gti at the same time at purchase and to my wife and me there was very little in it. My wife preferred the Peugeot trim but otherwise they really did seem extremely similar. Citroen was much cheaper to buy and at the time they were doing 2 years free insurance on them so it would have cost about 2k more to get the gti over the VTS.
Ours was extremely reliable compared to some people's experiences but then it was new . We had 2 faults - one was a broken side skirt clip fixed free and the other was a lambda sensor which was fixed without too much pain by the dealer ( although I had to give them some gentle prodding to get them to diagnose it properly )

The handling was excellent but I always felt the brakes were a bit poor personally - engine seemed to get a lot better after about 15k and a run down the Routes Napoleon to South of France.It was fantastic to drive on roads like the Col de Turini and round there.
Economy also seemed to be pretty good for us. No problem getting a genuine 44/45 mpg on long journeys although generally was about 35mpg.
As stated above, wheel balancing is a pain as noty many tyre dealers round us at the time had the facility to deal with solid centre wheels.

Wife still misses it and think she still prefers it to the Cooper S she's got now. If they still did them, and they had aircon, I'm sure she would go for another one

B9GLY

I had 2 mk2's and they were great, reliable and fast for a hot hatch! handle well and the engines are ripe for tuning! just get the 106gti leather interior in it as its a straight swap! lol

www.saxosportsclub.com

lots of info and cheap second hand parts!

LG John

The brake disks warp if you so much as look at them the wrong way so that's something to be aware off. There are technically 3 versions but only two that are visually obvious (facelifted front end, new alloys, etc). Leaking sunroofs is fairly par for the course so expect that it might happen.

MooseRacer

VTS is a bargain buy at the moment. Braking 'issues' easily solved by putting the 306gti setup on.

Great old school handling hot hatch, the TU engine is fundamentaly a strong motor.

stilover

I had a 106GTI, and it was the best handling car I've ever driven. The most fun I've ever had in a car too.

If your funds allow, go for the 106, you won't be disappointed.

Forget the 0-60 times too. Ever magazine that tested the 106 got 7.2sec to 60 instead of 8.2 that Peugeot said it would. More saxo's were sold on this fact (Saxo faster to 60) plus like said above, they were giving them away.

The Saxo has more mechanical grip (just) but the 106 is alot more playful when grip is overcome. It won't snap on you like a Saxo will. It's hard to explain, but when going sideways it was like it was in slow motion, the car reacting to you, rather than you reacting to the car.

Richard Burn's didn't say it was the best handling car for nothing !!!

Mike123

Every magazine except Autocar then - who actually got 7.7 ( dry track) for Saxo and 8.2 ( damp track ) for 106.
How much more mechanical grip would the Saxo have over the 106 if both were on the same tyres though? They came specced with different ones on the 14" when we had ours.
The later 15" wheeled VTS obviously had a 195 tyre so would be likely to have more grip...but what about a Saxo vs 106 both on Pilot HX's ...or both on Pirelli P700s. What's the difference then?

WHEELSHOP0_0

We gave a customer who is selling his Saxo VTS its a 51 plate with a claimed 180bhp (probably closer to 160bhp) very quick,it was a members car on here he had spent £5k on mods, its bodykitted and spoilered to death but a good car under all the tacky rubbish. Gen miles with history and around £2800 dont know if this is value, any use send me a pm I will give you contact details.

LG John

The VTS and GTI are the same speed in a straight-line period. Any very slight differences will be down to the driver or the quality of the individual engine. As for handling the GTI has a reputation for being more managable at the limits but frankly I found the VTS to be a hoot to drive on the limit and armed with a healthy respect for what happens if you lift off I found it adjustable and playful. I was quite happy therefore to have saved money on the purchase price and have the added bonus of more outright grip.

I personally take all claimed bhp for n/a modified VTS/GTI's with a massive pinch of salt. Especially LAD modified ones

Mike123

I agree with you there Saxo Boy re performance "differences" - never found our VTS a handful on the limit either.

Unless you ran both car on exactly the same tyres I can't see how you could quantify a difference in mechanical grip. I can't recall seeing any magazine test that did that. Performance Car did a slalom test and they were all but identical ( even on different tyres ). If the tyres had been the same I wonder what difference the subtle suspension variations would have made?

LG John

Probably none Mike - the difference was likely the wheels and tyres IMHO.

Mike123

That's what I think to a great extent Saxo Boy. I know the 106 used different dampers but I doubt they were vastly superior over the course of an average B-road. They might be better in some situations and worse in others. Bear in mind most of these car mag comparisons will have been done when the cars were new - when they were new, AFAIK, they never came out the factory on the same tyres.
You only have to read some tyre tests to see how much difference they can make on the SAME CAR over a short lap to start wondering .........

HankScorpio

Don't know if it's SIAL but I got pointed at this today.

Quite a project.

PH: Saxo......with a difference

Mike123

Just looked at that test again - the VTS did the slalom in 7.15 seconds, the 106GTi in 7.22 seconds. ( a difference of 7/100ths of a second! ).
Just for interest a 306GTi took 7.7 seconds ( a difference of half a second to the 106 )
The VTS ran on 185/55x14 Michelin Pilots and the GTi on 185/55x14 Pirelli P700s so I would suggest that any perceived difference in mechanical grip could well be attributable to the different tyres....or maybe you are comparing a later VTS with 195/45x15s to a 185/55x14 shod Gti?
As most journos tested them when new, it seems to me that any differences in "snappiness on the limit" or whatever could be down to mostly tyre choice and that rubber's behaviour on the limit.

By all means, choose the Gti if you prefer the looks, interior, image etc but I wouldn't presume you are buying an inferior performing, handling car by getting the VTS. As Saxo Boy said it's probably going to come down to differences with individual cars at this age.

sparky300

hi had a vts years back as a second car, very quick off the mark could kick the **** on the 2l mr2 jap import i had also at the time. i loved driving that car as it really was a little rocket!

But the main issue was all the problems i had with it. 120bhp twin cam 16v as standard. Does a very good 0-60 for a little 1.6l.

I stared playing with it and upping the power a little it seemed the car was just too fragile to take it.

Car had 38k on the clock nothing wrong when I had it, AA checked it out, over the first year…

Power steering pump went
Handbrake snapped
Brakes needed changing x 2!!!!
New radiator, over heating problems
Rev ‘ed its self at traffic lights on hot days – common problem I was told after 3 days of fault finding at the garage, never fixed!
7 times plugged into the EUC machine!!!


Then I upped the power, a real 148bhp ish (people always over estermate the bhp on these little cars, infact the first time i run the standard 120bhp it should have had, it turned out to be just 96bhp, my mates vtr was 72bhp and it was brand new at the time, thats the same as my girlfriends 1.3 KA now!)

2 clutches in 6 months
At a set of traffic lights I pulled off hard 1st gear, 2nd, then the gearbox shattered.
The head gasket finally went, cus twin cam cost too much to fix!


I loved the car it was I little devil but had to go as it was like a money drip direct to my bank account.


get a old golf if you want a little hot hatch.

Neil_H

Have you got a copy of that slalom test scanned into your pc mate, or do you have the actual magazine? Is the vts used in the test a silver model? (P883 DJM) Wouldn't mind a look if you have got it uploaded to your pc.

In regards to the 106 gti/vts suspension setup, the rear ARB on the 106 gti's are 'apparently' thicker (24mm gti/22mm vts IIRC) than the ones fitted to the vts. Also, as someone has mentioned, the dampers on the gti differ from the ones fitted to the vts.

delcbr

thats really poor power the saxos you mentioned were making but ive raced a couple of vts b4 on the road in my then standard renault 5 turbo which was making 99bhp@the wheels so approx 120bhp @the flywheel and a standard vts is almost the same acceleration but i raced a decated vts and that was a smidgin faster.

then i fitted a couple of selected mods and it was game set and match.
i suppose i will have to drive a couple to feel how fast they are.

are you sure those power figures you mentioned werent power at the wheels?
iam interested to know how you fixed the power issue on your vts as something must of been holding it back to begin with as your mods couldnt of been worth 52 bhp to get you from 96 to 148bhp

whay year and plate was your vts?

i would really love an old crx vtec but they are too much money for a 16 year old car 3k

Neil_H

All TU5j4 lumps use hyd. lifters.

They only made a mk1 & mk2 vts. Mk1 - 97 to 99 , mk2 - 99 to 03. Mk1's had 14" wheels (same as the vtr) , mk2's had 15" wheels fitted (although some late mk1's had them fitted as std). The differences between the two were mainly just cosmetic changes. Engine/suspension remained pretty much the same.

I've added a bit of info in the link below mate which might be of some use to you:

https://www.scoobynet.com/other-marq...today-its.html

Mike123

Aha Neil - yours is the old Performance Car test one then?!

Yes I have the magazine (and the ones your car was featured in as per the long term tests). It's yours used in the test.

To be honest though, if the VTS had a thinner rear ARB than the 106 Gti it would tend to suggest the 106Gti would be snappier on the limit/have a looser back end which is the converse of what some people are saying.
I knew Peugeot developed their dampers in-house rather than buying in as per Citroen .

These cars are so near the same that unless you tried them both on the same tyre, it makes any comparison slightly meaningless IMO.
Look at any tyre test, the same car will handle differently at or near the limit on different sets of tyres - you're changing one of the biggest chassis variables with tyres

sparky300

It was a 1998 vts, the power was yes at the wheel not the fly, so at the fly then yes around 120bhp, but I always take that of wheel not the fly.

I got to that bhp after had a full decat, full system installed, chipped and had a remap as it messed up my engine really bad, ported and polished, lightened fly wheel, new fuel regulator and bits more… it takes a lot to get that sort of bhp in such a little car, the only thing left was to tubro it, I had a quote of £3000 to do so which was not bad at all. Even if I went that far and fitted a turbo don’t think the car would have got much more than 160bhp.

But I am not saying it was not fast, that thing scared me more than my wrx, its 0-30 would embarrass most jap performance cars!

Neil_H

Mike123 - yes mate, mine is the old PC mag long termer. She's still going strong lol.



I agree mate, you'd find it hard to notice any difference in handling between the two. Put them both on exactly the same size wheel/tyre combo and I very much doubt you'd notice any difference at all imo.

sparky300 - 150-160bhp is easily achievable on these engines nowadays. A set of mildish cams, manifold, exhaust, decat, filter and remap will be all that is needed to reach that figure. It's not uncommon now to see T/C'd S/C'd vts' knocking around running between 200-300bhp.

MooseRacer

Indeed, I had a 300bhp turbo'ed Saxo engine in my AX

andythejock01wrx

That in a 3kg car ! Scarey !

Mike123

You've put the 15s on then I see - our T-reg was supposed to have them on but we didn't like them and made a lad who was picking his new VTR up on the same day very happy!

LG John

I much preferred the 15s to the soup bowl 14s - personal taste I suppose

Mike123

Very true - when we ordered the car there was no mention of the 15s and my wife nor I didn't like the design as much as the dished soup bowl ones .

The salesman suggested to a lad picking up his VTR the same day whether he'd like to swap and he was over the moon!