TopBanana

330i with an M5 engine. Seems to go pretty well.

m5board.com: Hartge H50 5,0 E90 Part I, Mountainroads and the Autobahnsprint - Google Video

Shark Man

I must ask what is the point when the 3series chassis is only 15Kg lighter than the E60 saloon chassis?

(this is ignoring the difference in engine weight as the v10 engine and gearbox is almost 200kg heavier than the 6pot ).

TopBanana

Apparently the H50 is almost 200kg lighter than an M5. It's also a little smaller.

Regardless of all that, the question shouldn't be 'why?' but 'why not?'

Andy M3

Indeed TB. I love it

I had the pleasure of racing around Donnington at the sametime as Hartge H1 which was glorious to follow round, briefly

simplesteve

Until you did him on the brakes into the Melborne Loop, then left him for dead.....

Andy M3

Er no . Until he thanked me for letting him past then went on to diff it around coppice and disappear into the distance....................

The H1's fastest rolling lap of 22 laps was 1'27.98 on that day.

Shark Man

200kg? I wonder how they managed that, unless somebody, somewhere hammed the figures. As from looking at various sources of the car, it didn't look like a stripped out race car. There is not much else that can be saved weight-wise, without resorting to composite panels or cardboard boot floors ala CSL (subframes are already alloy, and likely to be heavier if they need to be strengthened).

Taking into account that a 330Msport is 15kg lighter than a 530MSport with the same engine and gearbox (barring slightly diffent ratios). The extra 250kg on the M5 over a 530 must mainly come from the drivetrain, which works out at bring roughly 67% larger in size and displacement, heavier, stronger gearbox and rear diff, larger brakes and minor suspension tweeks. I would expect to see the same outcome to a 3series wihich had the same complete drivetrain tranplanted in to it with assoicted uprating of brakes and suspension to cope.

Knowing that current BMW engines owing to silicone alloy castings, are roughly as light as they can possibly make them (M-series engine are now alloy blocks as opposed to iron ), with matching gearboxes rated accordingly to the engine's output. A 3.0 6pot engine and box is roughly 100kg heavier than the 2.0 4pot engine and box. So its feasible to say that the v10 engine and gearbox is roughly 200kg heavier than the 3.0 6pot. Which funnily enough, works out at about 67% heavier (drivetrain weight) - in line with its difference in displacement and physical size (also roughly 67%) which accounts for the weight difference between a 530 and M5. Weird, it's almost as if BMW guessed their curb weights based on mathematic calculation instead of a weighbridge

Now, going back to the E46 M series, BMW had to do some fairly extreme stuff to get the M3 CSL 110kg lighter than its brother the M3, and bearing in mind this is mainly body and interior mods by use of composites that allowed this reduction.

I see non of this mentioned in the Hartge H10, so, where did they lose the weight from?

Think I might e-mail Hartge this and see if they can give me a break down of what exactly they have done And I'll also tell to stop messing with wedging stuff into 3sereis and go about doing some proper mods on the M5, like superchargers and a proper fully manual gearbox

The point of me asking why is because of all the above, what's the point if the same weight saving could be done to a 5 series? Which is also arguably the better handling and balanced chassis too.

Scoobybits

My mate has got a early e46 that hartge did a conversion on that goes well and looks better imho than that one!
M5 engine /box etc in a 318.. stealth tastic! two little v8 badges on the wings and some very subtle mods.. its for sale.......its the only one apparantly! Some guy was very upset from the lights the other day in his new shape m3 evo dusted by an old x plate 3 series

bbigman2000

sounds good, but yeh pointless imho

Andy M3

If it is the only one, i have seen it. X plate, dark blue coupe based on a SE. It was in Chesterfield a couple of years ago. It sounded lovely

Scoobybits

Thats the car...

Mike123

I take it you know that BMW are planning to do a 6-speed manual for the 07MY M5 in the U.S?
No current plans to do it in Europe unless "customer demand warrants it as per the U.S."

Shark Man

No I didn't in fact Not impressed either;


The excuse reeks of the same excuse Jaguar use in justify not producing manual gearboxes for cars equipped with the v12 (going back a bit ) or the V8s. Despite Jaguar specialist vehicles (and TWR back in the day) making manual versions of both that proved much faster and driveable than the auto counterparts. They then say it won;t be avaialble as the customer demand doesn't warrant producing it.

Funny thing is Jaguar based their decisions on the US market (where evrybody drives autos)- yet BMWs decision is the reverse, absolute bonkers!

Perhaps there is an underlying excuse, like they can't get it federalised in time. Also BMW historically have often used American sourced gearboxes in their US cars (GM as opposed to ZF ), so I wonder if there is a link.