J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

The whole performance car thing, why do we care that a car will go from 0 - 60 in 5 seconds, or ten seconds, it doesnt actually matter, the practical consideration of not slowing down traffic and making good progress to your destination is one thing but halving your acceleration time makes no difference.

Ditto high top speeds, high grip and loud exhausts. We end up buying stupid, expensive, more unreliable cars in the quest to go a little faster.

Not saying I still dont want all the above, I just dont know why ?

What is it that makes us go all uneccessary when we hear a Ferrari wailing or a rally car popping on the overrun, what would Freud say about it.

Jacko's Mate (TM) claims to have transcended this desire for fast cars but I think its cos he's got a Citroen Picasso, or is it why he bought a Citroen Picasso, its the old chicken and egg shaped thing debate.

astraboy

we're all adrenaline junkies.
Its what it boils down to.
astraboy.

Brun

[Andy Mode]Dunno[/Andy Mode]

ScoobyJawa

Exactly why I sold my Skyline GTR - it was pointless on almost every drive I took it on due to over congested roads.

sti-04!!

Get yourself a fast diesel

The Chief

Some good points especially bobbing to work along cluttered up roads thats why i bought a cheap hack that costs me very little to run and i dont care if it gets a ding in a car park - the Subaru comes out to play at weekends. and given the circumstances i.e. empty roads on the tops i love how it corners and that lovely midrange thrust out of bends that only a turbo car can give you - i liken it to a rollercoaster that you control.

A feckin joke to run i wont even go there but i love it and i am addicted - it makes weekends worth living.

Hell it even makes me feel young again ok ish!!!

lightning101

Because i'm still alive. Not needing the adrenalin means you've turned old. It stops being something you look forward to and turns into a utility, much like buying a washing machine i.e necessity

Vapid

.......and be bored ****less by a low revving heavy nosed dross mobile?

Speed without sensation is boring, may as well go all out for economy if you get a diesel and get something like a VAG 1.9.

The reason I own 'performance cars' is that it's still perfectly possible to enjoy such a car legally even in the UK. You can still find fast roads where it's possible to enjoy your cars handling, acceleration and retardation within the law.
Also I have to admit it's amusing watching some muppet thrashing the pants off their car, driving badly and generally being an *** trying to compete with me when I'm not even making an effort. A BMW mini cooper S with works badges in south lakes springs to mind, maybe they aren't so quick on the twisty bits after all?

///\oo/\\\

Buy something like a DC2 Integra, or a cheap westfield and you can have all the sensation you want at legal "ish" speeds. If you are a half decent driver you'll be quicker than 99% of cars on the road without having to have performance stats that would worry a 911 turbo.

Dream Weaver

You can have fun in any car.

Powerful cars just push the limit/speed further up. As an example, we had a Hyundai Getz 1.1 in Spain and I had it on three wheels round the Spanish B Roads - only going slow, but was a hoot to drive.

Conversely, the 205 has to be thrashed to death to go quickly, and the limit is much much higher up the speed band.

I think as you get older though, you look for more comfort/speed vs all out rally slag. It must be happening to me, as i've just removed the buckets/track bits from the 205 to make it more comfortable

Dream Weaver

Having said that, you can't beat the thrill of a really qquick car, especially on track

Longjing

Bike maybe?

Adrenaline is too simple an answer. If that was it, fast car owners would all be out biking, paragliding and doing the wall of death. It's also, I think, to do with our cultural love of cars and other social stuff like looking good/feeling flash or just fulfilling young dreams.

LG John

I love the buzz but part of the reason is also safety. I drive my a 1.something Fiesta beater during the week and regularly get myself into trouble with it because its lack of power reduces your options. With the S2000 I can pick and choose my way around the traffic and enter and leave it at the most appropriate points.

///\oo/\\\

Translation:

My S2000 allows me to drive like a **** in the 30 and 40 mph limits, making lots of noise and getting lots of attention, jumping into gaps that don't really exists and carving people up because my 240 plus BHP @ 8000 rpm lets me get away with it, whereas in my 1.something Fiesta I have to drive with care, awareness, anticipation and consideration for other road users

LG John

Have you not been banned yet?

LG John

All of those except consideration - IME 95% of the motoring public are uneducated drones that are incapable of making basic motoring decisions. I make them for them

Generic User

I agree entirely. What is the point of a modern fast car? The Impreza is a perfect example; They don't "feel" fast, there is very little involvement or feedback in driving it so it's somewhat a bore to drive, no matter how fast it is. It's the same with Hondas, Skylines, Where on earth is the buzz from driving it? Especially on the road, within the speed limits (ish). I know I don't get it; It's just far too easy to drive, and that's why I have a alternate weekend car. In fact, I've had more fun hooting around an old Bedford 7.5tonner with a 6pot turbo Perkins; Reminded me what double de-clutching was

The best cars I have had for thrill are by no means the fastest, in fact very slow by today's standards. But because you actually have to put some effort in driving them (no feather light PAS, no assisted brakes, no wimpy clutch pedals, no sound deadening, no refined suspension etc.). You actually get a sensation of speed, worthwhile feedback and loading up on cornering from the steering , solid brake pedals with directly proportional effort. Gearboxes that need to be nursed with double de-clutching and heel and toe throttle blipping to get fast and slick gear changes. Modern cars have non of that. It's why a Series 3 Land Rover driven hard at 70+mph feels like 170mph. Safe? no. Easy? No. Fun? Yes (it's a challenge). Effort? Lots!

That is what modern cars lack; Sensation. If 40mph feel like 80mph, then your going to get far more of a buzz from it. Go back a few years and you'll find cars that actually provide a form of driving sensation. For example a 25year old Porsche 911 is lovely (not turbo - fast, but crap lag and not enough gears), especially in Carrera RS form. A BMW 3.0csi is evil but alluring. A 60's/70's Lotus Elan S1 or S2 FHC or +2 with the 130bhp big valve engine is a pure joy of handling perfection. A TR6 is a car to wrestle; A truck engine in a roadster can only mean one thing - a handful, but fun and a challange in the process.

You don't even need to look at old classics though: Take a 2.0 pinto engined Capri or even a Sierra. Replace all the knackered bushes on the suspension plus a pair of new stock shocks and a quick engine tune up. And you will have a car with far better feedback and half decent low-rev response that you never get with most modern petrol engines in the same catorgory (all rev - no guts), and RWD to boot.

You see, modern cars are too refined. Aimed too much at the clueless general public who don't know what steering "should" feel like. Or how brake pedals should feel like, how heavy clutches could be, and how uncoperative a gearbox could be if taken for granted. Just drive a modern shopping variety VW Passat or Audi A4 and get to feel (or not feel) how numb driving can be...and these manufacturers somehow thought that is what all drivers want

But then, thinking about what the average modern driver is like, it is of no surprise; All of them driving round clueless to how close their car could be to the limits of pure physics - because they can't tell. And they wouldn't know what to do if they did. That's why they look confused when they understeer into a curb or oversteer on braking/lift off which sends them crashing into a convenient nearby object. I see it all the time. I've just had to repair a 318 coupe (debadged like all poor mans BMWs ) to which had wrecked rear suspension by whacking a curb (sorry, but just how do you oversteer a 318 with EBD, ABS, DSC and TCS...it barely has enough power to pull its own weight without the electronics ). Same with a Tigra I've just had in which had lift-off oversteer and trashed some poor bimbos new blingin' 19" wheels. Or the guy who took his vectra through a wall...backwards. God forbid if they drove a car with no independent suspension and drum brakes all-round (or maybe just an LDV pilot ) ; I'm sure Darwinism would prevail.

WHEELSHOP0_0

I am sure that rear wheel drive Fords can be fun but surely something like an MX5 can give more smiles/per mile at legal speeds and fun handling than an old Blue Oval rotbox. Its horses for courses but the route for most Sierras and Capris has been and gone surely now.

Generic User

MX5 is ok. But needs more torque in the lower rev range and the power steering ruins it. Which it doesn't even need!

Vapid

Press the off button and drive the car at it's very limit. Quite easy to spin a 320D with everything turned off-whether you intend to or not.

Regarding modern cars I can think of a few examples that are halfway decent in terms of actually driving and the ability to enjoy driving it at legal-ish limits.

Original 1.8 focus for example, no ABS, skinny tyres, good steering feel and not enough power. Other than the fact it's FWD an almost perfect recipe for cheap on the limit fun.

Generic User

320d has torque and a turbo that spins up agressively (as they generally do), a 318 has neither I never understood why BMW bothered with their 2.0 and 1.8petrol engine in the 3series when the diesel unit is superior in all areas. Barring using them for guinea pigs for Valvetronic. But I suppose a badge snob who wants a poverty spec BMW wouldn't want to endure the snobbery of driving a oil burner

I like the focus. As a shopping car it has done well for itself, it handles as a car should. However, I never liked the transit-like driving position, but most cars are like that now anyway. And again does a car weighing a shade over a ton really need power steering? Horses for courses. I can forgive the Focus for having PAS, due to its intended market (the wimpy-armed public) unlike other "drivers" cars.

WHEELSHOP0_0

Not really defending them but if you ask my wife she likes PAS,and I thought it was about feel not outright speed hence more torque= more feel?

Vapid

A 318 puts out 130bhp and a decent wodge of torque, probably enough for most drivers unfamiliar with RWD to lose control with the ESP turned off, particularly in the wet or on a diesel spill. I'm no novice (no expert either) but I had a big moment in my E90 320D on a roundabout awash with diesel and that was with the electronic safety net turned on. I can't understand why any badge snob would pick a BMW either these days, even the top of the range cars project a worthless, new(not enough) money, 'cheshire' image.

The Focus is great though I fear the MKII isn't as nice to drive and feels a lot bigger, however I'm basing this on having driven a TDCI estate so I could be wrong. The original car's power steering was great though compared to most systems in that it actually gives some feedback. Whether it really needs it I couldn't comment but I suppose it helps the ladies park it.

Moley

iTrader: (9)

Agree with the original post, and i guess that is why track days are becoming more popular then ever.

I have got to the point now where i don't enjoy driving anymore. Am always wondering who will be the next person to cut me up, or where the police will be hiding today.

Don't get to drove the Impreza anywhere close to what it was designed for, and that is the reason i am getting a run-around to go to work in and saving the Impreza for weekends and track days.

Generic User

It's a hard question to answer as to why the MX5 doesn't float my boat. I'd just have to say my view of the MX5 is a personal taste. Going back to say, the TR6. That is not a fast car. But it has a huge amount of low down torque, which makes for an interesting drive. It's not a good engine, in fact in engineering terms, its rubbish. But it has character, how I describe that is difficult, it delivers lots of power low down in the revs, trailing off towards the top, it still needs to be worked, just like a MX5 engine, but in a different manner.

The mx5 engine, especially in 1.6 form behaves typically of any modern Japanease engine, over-sqaure design, free-revving, progressive power delivery upto the redline, engineering-wise much better. But I have nothing much else to admire in the way it delivers its power, it is smooth and revs high. It's nice, but. And thats what it feels to me; too civilised; To sum up my opinion - a characterless engine in a characterful car. I'm not saying its underpowered, far from it, it just never inspired me.

Going back to the Sierra (I'd rather not, but it's only example I can think of ) Ford replaced the Pinto engine withe the CVH. The CVH arguably was the better engine from an enginerring stance. But the Pinto engined Sierra had more interesting power delivery. The pinto produced more torque at low revs (dispite being the same size engine), and that made the car feel better to drive, although the CVH version was probably the faster of the two.

Vapid

Why would you want to drive an Impreza on track days?

///\oo/\\\

I would agree with a lot of that, but crap brakes, crap gearboxes and over heavy clutches don't make for driver enjoyment. Application, yes, but not enjoyment.

On the other hand, I had a 1.3 Mk2 escort that was a joy to drive. Feelsome steering, lovely, direct gearchange and no power assisted anything (not that it needed it)

I'm kind of with you on the Capri/Sierra front, although they are so ****e in almost every other aspect..lol...

There are, however, a few "modern" cars that are a hoot to drive at sane speeds. The french are quite good at it (although the more recent electric steering assistance has changed much of that)

You should have a go in a DC2 Integra type R if you are unfamiliar with "feel" in a car with front wheel drive & power steering, for example.

Vapid and I may disagree on this point, but the RWD small BMW's and Mercs are much nicer to drive than much the front wheel drive competition from Japan, Ford and Vauxhall. Most of which, in turn, are nicer to drive than (almost) anything from the VAG stable.

LG John

Who or what is Jacko's mate by the way?

WHEELSHOP0_0

Lots of good points made, couple of my friends have bought mrkII escorts recently (one £9k)(one £7.5k) and neither one can tell me why, in every respect there are better alternatives out there but nothing gives them the same feeling(in the head/heart not on the road) as these old slow,cart sprung,rusty overated BMW 3 series wannabees, So no accounting for taste.
ps I have a classic Ducati (doesnt go well/handle or stop, costs more than a modern superbike) and I cant use it in case it gets a stonechip. So this must be the same blinkered attitude I used when explaining to the wife that we cant go on holiday because the Duke needs looking after.

Vapid

Don't know about the small Mercedes as I've never driven anything other than a SMART. E46 compact was more fun than any modern FWD car I've driven though.