jeremy

so say Autocar this week. My feeling is that when they compared the test mule to the lastest Sti's and Evo's, it was simply outclassed. At one time Ford had the money and engineering talent to do anything- but they never did a darn thing with it. And now they hit their heads against their desks at board meeting wondering why the Ford division is hemoraging billions. I can't see Ford being a viable buisness much past 2015. If the stock holders are smart they'll convince Ford to sell Volvo to VW to get some money out before the ship sinks. Sorry this sounds harsh but the products are just too darn boring and average with no relief in site. A 10 year old could figure this out.

mightyyid

Sorry - thsi would not have been the case. Yopu do not develop a car, then after its development pitch it against its competitors. You do this from the start. And, to be honest, I doubt the Sti and Evo would have been the two cars they chose - usre they may have been some, but they would have been looking for other high performance cars that are above those cars in terms of interior quality etc etc. Sti's and Evo's are not the best cars out there, and as no price has been set, then they would not just do a direct comparison.

It doesn't work like that - it's a shame they are not planning on producing the Focus RS any more, and I suspect it could have been a car a lot better than the Evo and Sti (fairly easy really in many ways - a decent interior and modern chassis would go a long way to beating these two)...

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

Mighty I don't mean to be rude, but I think you're talking nonsense. Of course Evo's and STI's are a direct comparison. As for the Focus RS being a better car than an STI or an evo you really are way out of touch on that one.
Don't get me wrong I do quite like the focus RS but its like saying an Escort RS Turbo is a better car than a Pulsar GTIR. We all know that isn't the case.

Dream Weaver

I think mighty means the proposed Focus RS, not the current one andI agree with him.

Everyone thinks Scoobs and Evos are the pinnacle but they have their problems and issues like any other car, Scoob's are renowned for understeering, etc etc

As for Ford dropping development because they didnt like the prototype, get real The opinion of one person driving the proto RS and STi and Evo wouldnt determine the entire development project, they have marketing men to sell the things regardless of how good they are.

It simply boils down to money - the new RS would mainly be sold in the UK so the revenue to be made from it (especially when cometing against car supermarkets) wouldn't match the development costs, and as the UK economy is questionable at the moment they would have to be concerned about sales volumes.

Its all down to money/profitibility in the end.

Shame as I would have been interested in a 4wd Focus RS as I rate our current Focus that much.

Dream Weaver

And...cars are a personal thing.

I would prefer a mint std Escort RS turbo over a Pulsar GTiR any day of the week, but thats just me. I've never been a Ford fan but thats just IMO.

I think the looks of the current Focus RS are better than any other high performance car as well, simply stunning. The 2wd lets it down but in the dry with a decent driver they would be a match for a std Scoob/Evo.

And a decent 205 will whoop the lot of them Now theres a proper car for you.

Stryder

I think Ford will test the market with the new Focus ST. As far as I'm aware, plans to further develop the Focus RS have only been put on the back burner, in order that they can gauge market reaction, and then see if the car will prove to be profitable in the long term. It's a shame really as Ford still make good cars for the performance market, like the Ford GT, Ford Lightening, Mondeo ST220, and the equivilent Feista, which I read in Autocar laped faster than the Mini Cooper S in a group test.

I think Ford should make a highly specialised limited Edition Focus Cosworth, as I am sure this would be an extreme success given that they do what they did witht the Focus RS. They have the know-how and the people in place to make it successful. I just don't think they have the guts.

Adam M

I dont think ford are going anywhere right now, and I work on the inside!

as for assuming the company will go down hill because they cant justify a small production hot hatch that might sell 10,000 acorss the world, I think you need to do some studying of economics.

They don't give a damn about such a tiny market.

what has hit them is no so much their pension schemes as they are in no worse shape than any other major employer int he current economy. the trouble is the contract situation with the firestone tyres for the explorer which ford were obliged to honour despite the products being responsible for hugely expensive lawsuits.

but the company is recovering, and ford of europe is doing exceptionally well.

mightyyid

Thanks dreamweaver - I did mean the proposed one and am glad someone else sees that the good and bad of Scooby's and Evo's - and the fact that they are old chassis'. Likewise, you make other good points.... ;-)

mightyyid

No offence taken - but as we now know I was talking about the future car, not the past. BUT, you could legitimately state that a Focus RS is a better car in a number of ways - interior quality, price of parts, servicing, insurance, access to dealers. It all depends on how you define cars, but certainly a Focus RS is a nicer interior than my MY05 WRX SL, that much I do know. So before we get too carried away, lets understand that most people have bigger priorities than speed and handling, as clearly identified by the number of pants cars on the road that sell. It's down to image, cost and marketing.

mightyyid

mightyyid

For someone who works on the inside, I have to disagree with the impact of the Firestone situation which, while a large dent in the balance sheets, is not the cause of their problems - this is and was containable. Likewise, I do agree with the fact that a niche product like the RS will not make a difference.

Ford's problem is similiar to others - their market share in many markets is decreasing, but companies such as this as geared up to expansion - not to remain standing still. This loss of market-share can be attributed to a number of reasons - mainly premium cars developing their stragety to meet the mass-market, income's rising quicker than the inflation associated with car manufacturing, greater accessibility to cheaper cars (as many people want a car that works and gets from A to B). People buy BMW's for their prestige. Ford do make some damn good cars (and a few poor ones) but its the image that cannot compare when you have a premium product like a 3 series at only a few grand more.

I'd also question Ford Europe doing exceptionally well. They are doing better, but the UK is still their biggest market and that is still losing market share. It's not as bad as it was, but to state their doing exceptionally well would indicate they are making billions in profit - and that's not the case.

We have many automotive clients and are well aware of the car industry. In our book, Ford is less of a player than it used to be, and I don't see this changing for a long time I'm afraid.

jeremy

Mighty: You said it all: "Ford do make some damn good cars (and a few poor ones) but its the image that cannot compare when you have a premium product like a 3 series at only a few grand more."

Thats what I'm talking about! The Focus is a very good car, but unfortunately its a good car for 2000, we are in the 2006 model year now. The focus is no BMW 3-series or 1 series- the quality is not even close! And for this matter its no Alfa 159 either, nor is it a patch on the build quality of any VW product what-so-ever! SO what the heck is everyone smoking here, if Ford's best cars are not close to the quality of everyone elses (and note the darn Focus was just launched and yet with only a 10% increase in Torsional stiffness) new offerings- ford is over. Like I said a child could understand this. Its a case of too little much too late. 2015 and out.

stilover

Having owned a Focus RS, I can confirm that they are a far better car than the scooby (I now drive a MY05 STi uk PPP). The RS just felt right, the gear shift was loads better, the steering weight was better, more feedback through the steering. The brakes were phonominal, far, far better than the Scoobs. You can't even compare interior quality/layout. When ford build a high performance car they do it right in so many ways, and they think of little details, that Subaru/mitsubishi don't. Unfortunately the only problem with the RS was it was only FWD. For 90% of the time, on a dry road it didn't matter, but go for the overtake on a twisty, bumpy backroad, and you can sometimes nearly side swipe the car your overtaking (scary). Take out the overtaking, and it absolutely flies. I was all over a Evo VI on a backroad, my RS was chipped to 240BHP and 263ft Torque.
In so many ways I really regret getting rid of it, cos it was/is a far better car than the STI. But ultimately the STi with PPP is faster, and of course it has 4WD, so sideswiping a car is not an issue, and of course wet weather grip.
I personnaly think that Ford will build the Mk II RS, but have said it's on the backburner to take interest away from it, so to boost sales of the ST, which of course is out this November. Ford arn't that stupid, they know that hardcore fast Ford fans, would rather wait for the RS. So, tell them it's not coming, and they might go out & buy an ST, then hey presto 2 years later the RS arrives.Expect to see a 2 Litre 4WD Chia model out in the next year or so, cos they have the system. The RS will, I hope follow in 2007/2008.

dazc

4WD Focus RS Cosworth is a myth. It will never happen. The marketing hype has been around for 5 years+ now. Why would they actually build one when a photo of one they may build in a magazine does exactly the same marketing job at a fraction of the cost.

I'll believe it when I see it.

No doubt they have the technical know how. What they lack is desire and direction.

Daz

mightyyid

Sorry Jeremy, but I have to disagree here. The new Focus, out now, is excellent, and while perhaps not comparable to the new 3 series (which is also a fair bit more expensive), it is comparable to a 1-series which is overpriced for what it is and not selling in great numbers either.

As for saying the new Focus only has 10% increase in torsional stiffness, perhaps this could have something to do with the fact that it's previous torsional stiffness, in 2000, was way better than anyone elses at the time. So, 10% increase is totally irrelevant when the previous version was, picking a number, 50% better.

It does seem you are in a minority, which leaves me to believe you have a slight bee in your bonnet over Ford versus VW. You'll be saying next Mercedes have the best quality out there and beat everyone... errrr.

R 14NS R

can I ask what kind of a name mighty yid is?

3times

intresting reading, so thought I might pitch in.

As far as I am aware there will not be a cosworth focus as ford will not be using cosworth, instead they will use the engine form the volvo V5. the reason there was not a mk1 focus cosworth as they could not get the cooling right and kept melting heads.

Anyone comparing a mondeo to a 3 series should go and drive both, I think you will be suprised how well the mondeo drives, and in my opinion the interior is of comparable quality. Also the 3 series is crap when it comes to room, whereas the mondeo has shedloads.

I may be a bit biased as I have just gone from a WRX ppp to an ST220, two totally different cars but needs dictated (more room required) and the subaru is light years away from the ford in terms of quality. The chasssis is more than capable, and not being 4wd will not let me think I am a better driver than I think.

Don't get me wrong as I loved the scoob and, at certain times, really miss it, and will certainly miss the track days (looks like a dedicated track car is needed), but most of the time the ST does the job equally well.

Dream Weaver

I also have to disagree with that as well. We have a W-reg (2000) Focus as our daily car and its absolutely spot on, feels very solid and has been faultless for the last 16,000 miles now. Interior quality is good, handling and performance are good, space is excellent and all the features are spot on.

From what i've read about the latest BMW 3-series the quality on them hasgone down, but Ford quality is always on the up. I dont know any Ford owners that have had problems with their motors.

mightyyid

You can - goes back a long time, but refers to my passion for Spurs, of which fans are known as Yids. One of those mantels it is sometimes hard to shake...

Does that answer the question?

Andy (my real name!)

Daz34

As long as you don't mind it in max power blue

mightyyid

Very very true - they did perhaps go a bit too OTT on the colour...

Reminds me of the second generation XR2 (i) when they had these garish, blue or red XR2i-branded plastic strips inside the doors (on the carpet) - that looked so tacky!!!

Daz34

I've driven most models of the Focus including the ST170 but never the RS and all of them, including a basic 1.6 Zetec, were cracking cars to drive

Heple

They've done it twice before with the RS500 and the Escort Cossey, lets hope they can do it again with the Focus.

(PX your 2000+ STI/EVO for one of these 15ish year old cars and see how much change you get - Quality specks for itself)

................................Sits and waits in anticipation