Dark Blue Mark

Im considdering buying one mid to end of summer, but just wondering on the handling.

Now, having owned a numner of scoobs for the last 4 years, im used to unbelievable grip. My current STi has way over 300 bhp and I can launch it from standing round wet roundabouts and nicely have the back end where I want it, and even that takes effort to get it to step out.

The handling in the wet is undoubtedly good.

Moving on to the S2000, just been reading the thread below about using them in the winter. As much as I love the idea of owning one, it seems they are absolutely appalling in the wet - to the point where a lot of owners won't drive them and are looking for a 2nd car Not keen on the idea of having to tiptoe everywhere - where im used to driving as nearly as hard in the wet as the dry.

Comments appreciated!

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php...pic=85766&st=0

MB

bloke

Tyres!!!

Get some Toyos on (or GoodyearF1's if you can find any in the right size) - sorted

Seriously, makes a huge difference.

SiDHEaD

Goodyear F1s in 245x45x16 = you'll be lucky. They've stopped making them and no1 seems to have stock left!!! My mate who works at QuickFit was phoning round for hours trying to get me some!!!

I'm having Toyos next week

LG John

I'm hoping to get an S2000 sometime this year as well and now I'm proper sh!tting it!?!? Seems the 2002 version is more predictable and I had always planned on one of those but man they seem twitchy and at very low speeds too

SiDHEaD

By the way. The ones who wont drive them in the wet are:

a) not confident at driving/don't drive the car every day!
b) wusses
and c) don't know when to slow down - i.e. you can push on as much as you like in "wet" generally, but don't expect to VTEC round an island in 2nd unless you are ready to wind in a load of oposite lock.

They only time I have had a problem with it (and i drive like a **** most of the time TBH, no matter what the weather) is when it hits standing water. A normal car will aquaplane, which is scary enough, the S seems to lift and then flap from side to side. Slow down for standing water and it isnt a problem.

WRX_Rich

iTrader: (5)

Andys Girl Friend will no doubt agree to this



and to be honest I ve never seen may scoobies leave Andy

SiDHEaD

Well it backfires on her cos I make her drive as much as possible, and she hates driving at night etc.

The_Titanium_Knob_Man

DBM, the only RWD car I have owned was an MY03 S2000 and I have to say that it really boils down to how confident you are driving RWD cars that have no driver aids and rely totally on driver skill and judgement.

I think the bottom line is that you will not be able to hoon it around in the wet in an S2000 like you can a 4WD drive Scooby without running the risk of picking out bits of hedge from your teeth

I went from a WRX ---> S2000 -----> ITR, and one of the reasons I sold the S2000 which I loved was that I had a few 'moments' which scared the hell out of me! I didn't really have the time to get some proper tuition and I now am happier with the FWD Teg simply because I know I can take 'liberties' with it and its easier to recover.

I am not saying the S2000 is not a great car because it is but it does demand respect like all RWD cars do! You simply can't drive an S2000 around taking on the world in any weather condition without using good judgement. There will be times when you would be stupid to try and keep up with that Golf GTi! I don't think though the car is all about that really and you may find you would be disappointed if that is what you are looking for out of a fast car.

LG John

Having had very little RWD experience please forgive me but:

I always thought RWD was the ultimate driving experience and that a well driven good RWD would usually out perform FWD and AWD through the bends. It seems on the basis of this thread that RWD is total p!sh and you can't turn, can't brake, can't accelerate, can't cross white lines, can't go through water in a straight line and can't just get from a-b in the wet without an incident?!? WTF?? Should I ditch the S2000 idea and get a P1 instead?

SiDHEaD

In the dry mine is way faster and way better handling than my scoob was. Can't wait till summer

mynickers

FWD cars are not always good fun in the wet... ITR is an exception to the rule by all acounts, but it can be just as scary getting understeer at speed, although I would probably say it's often easier to recover from than rear wheel drives, especially for the less experience like meself.

I rate the S2000, but I'd be tempted to get an RX8 - turbo charge it and spend the change from the S2000 on the insurance

Squizz

Depends what you want from your driving...

I had a TR7V8 before my Impreza, and I loved the thing. I had one bad accident in it, but that was due to a mechanical failure. Grinnall cars themselves did a fantastic job with the handling.

The Impreza is great but doesn't have the sense of anticipation and drama. I still drove it like an RWD car (Slow in, fast out, etc).

Now we've got an S13 Nissan 200SX and the **** of that thing pops out at any opportunity especially in the wet. The back end is so light, it's ridiculous. I love it though. It's a challenge to drive it at all times.

Horses for courses. If you want to drive something with more soul, then go for it.

Diablo

Kenny

90% of performance car drivers have more money than ability.

Its a light, powerful, rear wheel drive car. Standing on the loud pedal in a low gear in manky conditions is going to result in oversteer.

Drivers nowadays are largely brought up on front wheel drive, where safe understeer is the order of the day. Give them something different and it becomes a handfull.

All you used to hear was how "dangerous" and twitchy the old 205 gti's were, particularly on lift off overtsteer.

I drove mine for 30,000 hooligan miles, and I mean "hooligan" miles. Never once caught me out unexpectedly.

D

Dracoro

You mean spend the change on petrol!!!!!!

Dark Blue Mark

Excellent thread, ta for the input. I have to admit Andy, I did read that thread and think *can these peole drive?* and that's no offence to the guys on S2K as they've been most helpful to me. I don't rate myself as any great driver, but i know how to push the scoob to the limit from much much practice in different conditions when no-one's around. Glad you hear you drive it hard all the time, sounds similar to me

Guess it's the same in any car, you just push it a bit more each time. But the S2K sounds so unpredicatable in the wet that this might not be an option - and you just have to drive normal all the time (in the wet)

Most of the fun I get from of driving is being able to push the car hard, and being wet here most of the year might get annoying.

Might get Rich B to take me out - but he drives like a girl

MB

Dark Blue Mark

PS - not sure on the stories of it snaking in a straight line - surely thats just dangerous?!

Can the 02 geo settings be replicated on older cars?

MB

SiDHEaD

Yeah they can, a few people on S2Ki have. The tyres are also an important factor. The standard (on pre MY04) SO2 Bridgestones have very little rain channeling so are great in the dry - because they have a lot of rubber on the ground, but come wet and standing water and this is where unpredictability starts.

Bear in mind I believe the later generations i.e. MY02 -> have less VTEC "kick" when you hit 6.5k, which helps it to not step out as easily when you are pushing round a sweeping bend etc.

Ideally, some 17s can be fitted and then you have a better choice of tyres. I really like the 17s on the MY04 but they are very hard (read expensive too) to get hold of.

The My04 is meant to be even "safer" with regards to predictability etc, but a lot of people on S2Ki call them "soft".

I wish I'd bought an MY04 now but I didn't really look into it, i just went out and bought one!

SiDHEaD

btw, the Geo settings sheet is on the FAQ on S2Ki UK, I used it when my mate re-did mine cos tyres were wearing weirdly..

Diablo

Mark,

Any rear wheel drive car with sufficient power can be made to snake in a straight line in the wet.

Road camber, bumps, surface imperfections, variable grip etc will all contribute to snaking when the rear tyres lose grip.

D

Diablo

And at the end of the day, you should be matching revs/gear/speed to avoid full throttle transitions from "soft" to "nutter" cam profiles mid corner anyway.

Its hardly rocket science - a comparatively large step up in power over a very short rev range.

Same would happen in a turbo car with severe on/off boost characteristics.

The honda system is quite simple - two sets of cam profiles and so the transmission is quite abrupt compared to other varable valve timing systems.

Dracoro

I had an S2000 for a while and loved it. Drove it dry/wet/sunny/wet/snowy etc. and never crashed it. At first I couldn't push it (1st proper rwd car) but I LEARNT how to drive it properly gradually getting more and more skilled as time went on. Things very rarely happen 'unexpectedly' unless you've got the knight insustries s2000 with a mind of its own. When the back came out I thought 'oops, too much power too early, not smooth enough etc.', I DIDN'T think 'ohh, no this car is a death trap, where's my mummy'. I would then LEARN from the experience as to what I did right and what I did wrong and adjust my driving. When I sold the s2000 to get the westie, I was driving the car pretty fast in all conditions (slower in the wet of course but that the same for any car as there's simply less grip, fact) and had the confidence to know what to do and how to do it.

Basically, if you want to drive a powerful RWD car fast then you need to LEARN how to do so and IMPROVE your skills. I know many people don't want to improve their skills, in which case stick toe FWD or 4WD, the roads will be safer for all of us other road users.

There's plenty of driver training courses you can try (1stLotus, don palmer etc.) if you're new to it all and want to know the best way to start off.

And do a track day, the S2000 is ace on them. My mate has a 260bhp scoob and the 1st time we went to bedford, he was quicker than me (only had the s a few months) but on the 2nd visit after I had improved my driving skills and learnt a bit more about RWD, I was apparently one of the faster cars on the track, certainly my scooby mate said he just couldn't keep up round the corners.

Dark Blue Mark

Thanks Drac / Diablo,

Ive owned an ITR for a number of months and studied the VTEC engine in a bit of detail

When people say its a 240 bhp car, that's only true near the redline - for the back end to snake in the wet in a straight line when below the VTEC doesn't seem right to me. I know people with highish powered 200SX's and that doensn't happen on boost. Granted the weight distribution is different which may play a big part...

Im still keen, and it wouldn't scare me as I know I would get on top of it eventually.

Just won't be as able in the wet as a scoob - which is an obvious statement.

MB

Diablo

Cool, so you know the Vtec system

Should be no problem for you then.

Snaking at low revs in the wet below changeover point would suggest geometry issues or more likely badly worn / poor tyres.

Its probably fair to say that (as with Boxters) a lot of S2000s are bought by people for the image and roof down appeal only, not those who appreciate whats happening underneath.

SiDHEaD

I've not really had any problem with the back stepping out off-cam ? Of course in icy round a minisland if u jab the pedal it can be caused, but if you are doing that you either want to drift round, or are a tit.

RichB

Mark that trip from Wareham to Corfe is quite a nice run, next time it's wet give me a shout, you can have a go. I obviously do drive like a girl cos I've not had any 'moments' in it yet... It's only hairy if you drive like a pratt IMHO. I don't tend to live in VTEC land when it's slippy...
I also don't find the 6k VTEC kick very impressive, still think there's something wrong with it... must get a go in another one to compare...

SiDHEaD

What year is yours Rich ?

Dark Blue Mark

Ta Rich,

Seemed quick enough when I drove it compared to my Integra. Never found it to be a kick either, more of a transition. Certainly not to be likened to a turbo kidney shove

l'll let you drive it in the wet, wouldn't want to have to buy another motor off you Esp a broken one!

MB

RichB

SiDHEaD, it's an 02.

Do any of you other owners have problems with the roof this time of year, mine won't go quite all the way down. You have to bring it back up a bit then help it down...

As usual my local dealer are completely ****. Horizon Honda are total penises. Fact.

Adam M

DBM,

I consider myself a safe but not particularly skilled driver.

The extent opf my sideways antics is always performed in a go kart.

With a 500bhp 22B you have to watch out for the corners which would be fine in a normal car, its just the impreza with more power doesn't handle like a 4wd or a rear wheel drive, it kind of varies in between which is why I drive it with respect.

You might say on the road, I don't think a car should ever lose lateral grip, so I drive to avoid it.

Now during the 2 years that my impreza was off the road being "improved" I extensively drove my dad's S2000. It is an 02 model with the revisions to the rear twitichiness.

By the sound of it your driving is similar to mine. All I can say is do not worry. The car if the back ever does slide (only in very wet conditions when you provoke it) is as catchable as a go kart and quite fun with it.

I find it daunting if the impreza slides and adjust the diff to stop it. This is just not the case with the S2000 as you sit much further back and can feel when there is any lateral sliding of the rear wheels.

Opposite lock is a natural reaction for me.

I have to say it doesn't happen often, as the car doesnt have the torque to really catch you out on the power.

Wet roads are not great, and standing water the same, but I would treat those conditions with respect in any car.

As for the drivers who are looking for a second car for wet conditions. I agree, either they really ahve no idea of the basics of driving and are totally unnatural drivers, or they are complete wooses.

Don't let that kind of nonsense put you off, the car is awesome and it would be a crime to discount on that basis.

SiDHEaD

Mine sure does - feel like a right berk getting out to press on it whilst pressing the switch. I've figured its the roof vinyl sticking to the top of the window and so not folding under correctly.

If you can go out in an MY00 you should feel more vtec kick - i know i did on the track in a friend's