Andy M3

OK - Pretty simple equasion, i have just had a bit of a debate with a Volvo 850R owner, who says the Volvo S60R has more lateral grip than a E46 M3 and thus out handles it due to it's 4 wheel drive that works similar to an evo set up - the argument moved on to defining grip v's handling etc - can anyone comment further as i sort of understand the principles of handling, but the physics and lateral s**t goes way over my head ???

thoughts ?

fivepint

I always thought handling was subjective?! kinda like beauty in the eye of the beholder... grip though is a specific physical trait that can be measured, doesnt make for 'better" handling though

m3matt

I presume you've got an E46 Andy?

I can't comment on them but I've got an E36 M3 Evo and think it handles superbly, it feels 'pure'. I've also had Imprezas and although I think that they are easier to drive fast than the M3, I feel that M3's feel 'better' - it is hard to describe.

Car & Driver did a test a few years ago for the best handling car OVER $30,000 US and included the following:
Ferrari 355, Porsche 996 Carrera 2, Dodge Viper, Corvette, Toyota Supra Turbo, E36 M3 (240hp US one) and a Honda Prelude. The M3 won the contest, it might not have been the quickest or have the most lateral grip but they claimed that the handling was simply the best of the bunch - controllable, grip, etc. Good handling isn't just a case of having lots of lateral grip

Interestingly, they didn't have any 4WD cars because they say that they aren't true sports cars. I can see where that argument comes from but I'm not sure its applicable in an every day sense. I'll dig out the link and post it later on.



Matt

Skittles

The Volvo may have better traction i.e. out of a bend etc, but the M3 is likely to have better grip, and grip is not dependent upon how many wheels are driving the car. It depends on the balance etc.

JDM

I remember reading an M3vsAudi RS4 head to head in Autocar. The BMW won easily despite/because of its RWD setup and handling.
I reckon an M3 would waste the Volvo, especially on anything other than a straight line but that's just my personal opinion.

Andy M3

My M3 is the e30 varient, which is by it's very existence built for bends, it's 200 bhp, 1250kg kerb weight and 7500rpm readline and 50-50 weight distribution means that from a to b it has got all the right ingrediants to show up every other car on the market. This was true in 1986, but even some hot hatches can run circles around it. But having owned an Audi quattro (2.2 n/a) i found the awd system to be beneficial on slippy surfaces from a standing start, although it didn't have the power to drift etc, i though it drove very much like a fwd car - i have been in a 04 WRX STI PPP and that was on a road test so i couldn't really comment, and i have been in a classic turbo with circa 240 bhp and that was very FWD feeling with loads of grip etc, but the experience i have had with front engine RWD cars, seems that they have the edge as far as handling goes -

The only other point is when i went to trax 2003 i saw x2 E46 M3's going around the track and they were easily quicker in and out of bends than Evo's, scoobys etc, although over all didn't seem any quicker around a track ?!?

Anyone else had experience of high powered RWD and high powered AWD ???

Skittles

Yeah a E46 M3 to a 996 C4.

While in the wet the 996 is clearly quicker, in moderately skilled hands under normal road conditions I think the M3 would be quicker - nice and pointy around corners.

Lust4Life

He probably just talking about the maximum lateral G it can pull - no real indication of 'handling' just mechanical grip.

Phil

Andy M3

I think the simple answer is the awd is capeable around the bends in all weather and easier to drive near the limit, however for turn in the road and out right handling ability the RWD would be quicker, but fewer people would feel confident driving close to the edge incase it snapped loose

Some nice point people - ta

CraigH

point him to the EVO test where they took both to bedford and the volvo got itself a new 4sshole ripped

DazV

As a compliment to the M3's handling - I remember someone on here a couple of years back who previously had a scoob, who switched to an e46 M3 and took it along to Bedford for a track day.

The weather was pretty bad, teaming down with rain, however, the instresting thing he said was - with the help of his traction control, he was lapping as quck as the AWD drive cars (scoobs, etc) so perhaps the M3's wet weather grip isn't that bad ?

Skittles

Its not. Last year's Autocar test had a M3 vs S4 in the wet and dry. The M3 won in both cases, but by a bigger margin in the wet. Caveat that by saying this is in the hands of a skilled, not average, driver.

Andy M3

Do you have a link to this ???