Mr.Manchester

been offered a Rover 620Si, i dont know much about these cars so i need advice!

Its been a company car for the first 3 years of its life so its done big miles but for the last 6 years some old guy has cherished it and used it just to tow his caravan, it now has 130,000 miles on it but with full service history and a big folder full of receipts plus its got the Honda engine in it (wouldnt touch it if it was the Rover engine) plus all the electric bits and its knightfire red.

Worth buying? things to look out for?

Rich and Mini

How much?

Rich

Cupramax

620si has most definately got a Rover "O" series lump in it. The only Honda engined 600's were the 618 and 623. At least being a company wagon all the bits that regularly fall off Rovers will have been stuck back on again

I had one also a company car a few years back and it was the most unrelaible heap of sh*te I've ever had the misfortune of being custodian of....

Da Booga

The normally aspirated 2ltr 600's were the Honda engine, the turbo 620's were Rover T16's.

HTH,

Gareth

Mr.Manchester

it is definatly a honda engine, my neighbout has a 2.0i prelude and its exactly the same.

he wants 650 notes for the car.

MGJohn

Funny old game folks and their opinions of cars .... often based on what they've heard or read rather than actual personal experience. .....

.... The ONLY Rover 600 I'd ever consider having is the one WITH the Rover engine .... the T16 Turbo!.... the 600 ti. It has a similar engine as my R220 Tomcat Turbo - provided they are looked after and well maintained, problems are rare. Those that do have problems are usually badly maintained, neglected and abused ones. Still don't believe me? Next time you're filling up and see a R600 ti (the one with the Rover engine) there, ask the owner what he thinks of the car. I've done this several times recently with a view to buying a 600 ti. Even made an offer to two owners before I got my Tomcat ..... both cars were not for sale by their satisfied owners. One car had only 72k the other 126k miles, both one owner from new. That says it all really.

Back on track, provided it has a long MoT and maybe some tax, it could be a good buy for a mere 650 quid. If you fancy it, drive the car .... not a quick spin round the block but minimum 30 miles test .... don't go mad in it as that will not tell you much, just a normal run with the occasional use of a little speed in all the gears. Be all ears and eyes on the test run. Car maybe low on fuel so offer to pay for a gallon or so. If seller reluctant to allow this longish run, walk away. Good luck.

Mr.Manchester

a run in the car should be no problem because its a mate that owns it

I have just heard and seen a LOT of rover engines go pop over the past year (mate owns a used car pitch) all of them have been fixed if broken but usually its things like head gaskets or a cracked head etc.........

So i thing id prefer the honda engine rather than the rover.

fatherpierre

i assume it's same engine as the old 820i?

I had one (auto) and mine left this earth on 245k miles. Engine was still sweet but the gearbox went.

Had all the usual rover failings of crap electrics, inc electric windows working whenever, PAS pump going on holiday, rust on the already rusted bits but the engine was not a problem - ever.

But you can't argue with that mileage.

If it's running well and has a decent MOT then you can't go wrong for the money. Nice, smooth runners.

[Edited by fatherpierre - 7/14/2003 3:16:00 AM]

Rich and Mini

My dad used to have 600s as company cars, they never went wrong, were comfy and my dad used to like them (very rare for dad to actually like a car!). LIke John said, have a proper drive, if you like it, buy it, can't go far wrong for 650 notes. The 623GSi is smooth, but the 620Ti is the pick of the bunch. Nothing wrong with a 620 though...

Rich

Steve V8

As an ex Rover dealer employee I can confirm that it will have a Honda engine in it.
The 618, 620 and 623 were all Honda units.
The 620 came in two power outputs; I think 115 and 136 Bhp. You want the higher output as the other one is a bit sluggish, as is the 97 on 618.
The only Rover engined ones were the 620 Ti turbo petrol, and the diesel. The diesel is OK, but check the coolant level frequently. The turbo petrol is quick, but if you get 40,000 miles out of a head gasket you have done very well.

The Honda engined ones are pretty good, and do last well. they can get a bit rattly and smoky at high mileages, but usually more down to neglect than anything else. (The 800 only uses Rover engines; not these hence their poor reliability reputation).

Watch out for igniter problems. The ignition module is inside the distributor, and can pack up taking the pick up with it.
If the module goes you are looking at £100 + fitting. Any more and it'll be a new distributor at £400+. Also watch for rust on the rear arches and the bottom of the doors.

If you're buying a Rover the 600 is definitely the one to go for.


[Edited by Steve V8 - 7/14/2003 7:21:23 PM]

Ti-Andy

I've a 1998 600ti and was grining like a cheshire cat when i picked it up. Was ex company with the upreated Klinger head gasket that rover brought out to solve the reputation of failures (the rep still stuck though)An awsome beast for the money.

After a while 200bhp was not enough though and after various mods including DTA engine managment, i found the limit of the standard pistons was 260bhp. New engine is almost finished with Forged pistons and lots of other expensive parts. Expecting over 300bhp and an even bigger Grin

MGJohn

fatherpierre WROTE:

>> i assume it's same engine as the old 820i? <<

also; Cupramax WROTE:

>> 620si has most definately got a Rover "O" series lump in it. The only Honda engined 600's were the 618 and 623. At least being a company wagon all the bits that regularly fall off Rovers will have been stuck back on again

I had one also a company car a few years back and it was the most unrelaible heap of sh*te I've ever had the misfortune of being custodian of.... <<

IIRC ....WRONG ..... on both counts. As I recall, only the fabulous 600ti has the Rover engine (one of the lowest profile "Q" cars ever - should have had an MG badge on it but that's automotive politics for you -!)- excluding the diesel derivative which may have some commonality with the O series.....

I won't bore you with mileages achieved in my various O series cars, both turbocharged and normally aspirated (N/A). What I will say that fatherpierre's high mileage experience is NOT unusual.

Never seen a 600 with and O series, which incidently is one of the most bullet proof and reliable engines ever. The O series WAS fitted earlier to some 800s though. Witness fatherpierre's observations with an 820i:

>> and mine left this earth on 245k miles. Engine was still sweet but the gearbox went. << >> But you can't argue with that mileage.
<<

The fine DOHC Rover T16 in both turbocharged and N/A forms, like its immediate predecessor the Rover M16, has its origins back in the single OHC "O" series. Like most engines, irrespective of marque and origin, they need to be well maintained in the interests of reliability, longevity and performance. Neglect and abuse any engine (I know of many intelligent car owners who do NOT know where their bonnet release is!!) and something will give .... as a quick glance at the problems on this Scoobynet will show that even a marque with a fine reputation will have problems, often expensive and serious and sometimes terminal.

Had BMW not killed off the T seies, we could still have the possibilty of an MGZS, MGTF turbocharged T16.

Final reminder: Andy Nicholls' legendary MG Maestro turbo is basically a ten year old Rover T16 turbo ....with one or two mods .... so, Ti-Andy, with a 'mere' 300 bhp you still have some way to go .......

The previous owner of my T16 turbo engined R220 Coupe had the car eight years and changed the head gasket at 70k although it did not need it but he wanted to be on the safe side because of what he had been told. 40k miles later, there is not a trace of oil in the so called "They all do that" spot near cylinder no. 4. My engine is as clean and oiltight as anything from Germany or Japan for that matter, simply because it has been well maintained. It is bog standard and a joy to use. The induction sound when it gets "on song" is a real head turner .....I love it. My son tells me the exhaust sounds good too but I've yet to hear it.....

So my advice to anyone considering buying a Rover, even an old high mileage one is; Reserve Judgement..... forget those stories you may have heard about Rovers because some are simply untrue .....

As I said in my earlier postings, peoples' opinions about cars can be and often are inaccurate and misleading hence my opening with " Funny old game folks and their opinions of cars " ...It really is.

Safety Fast Motoring .... whatever you drive.

MGJohn (who bought his first new Honda back in the early 1960s just BEFORE his first MG!!)



[Edited by MGJohn - 7/15/2003 7:56:18 PM]

mutant_matt

MHJ,

As an aside, what engine was in the 220 Coupe (non-turbo)? A 2 litre Rover O Series?

Ta,

Matt

NotoriousREV

As an ex-600Ti driver, mine had 120,000 miles on the clock when it got sold off although it did have some problems:

piston through side of block @ 80,000 miles
Gearbox failure @ 85,000 miles, replaced with used item
Gearbox failure @ 100,000 miles, replaced with re-con unit

That car was thrashed within an inch of it's life every day during it's time with me, so not such a bad record, plus thanks to my company's car policy it was run almost entirely on cheap oil and pattern filters. I loved that car, but the handling was scary in anything other than bone dry conditions, in the wet it would spin up in 3rd if the wheel wasn't perfectly straight

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Check that it's had the dizzy replaced and when, or at least the amplifier.

They are very prone to failure, otherwise in terms of engine and gearbox they are sound. Idle control valve can clog (worse on automatics). Also servicing is critcal on these, and make sure the coolant has been changed too.

Our 216 (1.6 honda) is on the second dizzy in 75K !! Only the honda engine are affceted with this

[Edited by ALi-B - 7/16/2003 11:31:43 AM]

Cupramax

Sorry for any confuions chaps, mine was a 620ti and I stick with what I said, it was an unreliable pile "o" sh1te.

Ringpeas

My 220 coupe had the k series (I think) which was a rover engine. Lovely to drive until the head gasket went, never the same afterwards.
My mate had a 214 on a N plate and guess what, the head gasket has just gone. Cost him over £600 to fix the damage, and that was not at a main dealer.
Both went around 70000 miles.
I'm sticking to Japanese cars now, never had one break down.

mutant_matt

I asked because my 28,000 mile old 220 Coupe blew it's head gasket and the bill was a painfull £1200 (warped head, re-ground valves etc.). The car had a full service history and was treated properly and well maintained. I liked the car but got fed up with it's (un)reliability

A Friend of mine had the 620Ti and that was a hoot (induction, exhaust, chip - 220bhp) and that was also well looked after and maintained and the head gasket went on that with a similar painful bill. It also sprung several oil leaks and needed a new gear linkage at about 70,000 miles.

Another friend of mine with an Elise had his head gasket go at around 20,000 miles but luckily, it was still under warranty.

A freind of mine was also the Service Manager for a Rover dealer and he would advise you never to buy a Rover, as they are in the main, very unreliable (he said they made loads of money out of warranty work though ).

I thought that the Rover engines had a reputation for head gasket failures, something I have seen backed up with personal experience. I'm not saying that they *are* rubbish but they certainly *seem* to be...

Matt

P.S. This is where someone comes along and tells me all the above engines are completely different to each other...

Da Booga

Matt, the engines in the n/a 220's are T16 (or M16 up to K reg) same as the turbos (with different pistons etc.).

I've had a n/a 220GSi and in 30K+ miles in 1.5 years never had a single problem with it. This included several trips to various drag strips etc.

I have a Coupe turbo at the moment and it had the head gasket replaced with the uprated "klinger" gasket just before I bought it at 70,000 miles and 15k miles later not a drop of oil to be seen

Have to say it does appear to be pot luck with these engines but if you get a good one they're a hoot and VERY underated

Gareth

mutant_matt

I was also wondering why lots of Elise owners weren't fitting the 220/620 Turbo engine into their cars as that seems the obvious thing to do....Are the mounting points the same as the 1.8 VVT (also a Rover unit?)?

Matt

Da Booga

AFAIK Matt the biggest problem is weight. The K series engine fitted in an Elise is alloy and therefore quite light but the T series engines are, as has been said above, very heavy so the extra power would be offset by the weight which would also ruin the handling.

The most popular route for Elise owners is supercharging the 1.8 I think.

Gareth

MGJohn

Recently recovered a work colleague's Toyota from Gatwick (blown gasket whilst on his way to Airport on first day of holiday .... DOH! ). It needed replacement cylinder head and other expensive bits and bobs. I used a 120,000 mile MG Montego Turbo to tow the stricken Toyota on a four wheel trailer for the 300 mile round trip. O series turbocharged still going strong. His must be the only Japanese car ever to have head gasket problems according to some of the stuff on here. The old turbo still gave over 20 mpg in so doing. That was a surpise - I expected it in the low teens with that lot of weight.

Sure many cars have problems but some of the "facts" quoted here are both inaccurate, misleading and help to give credence to motoring myths. Just because one car is bad news doesn't mean all the rest are!!!! If you work in a garage chances are many of the cars you see there will be those that have problems much in the same way as a doctor's surgery is full of sick people.....

If you get a chance, as I have done over the years (on account of being a car nut) get friendly with your local Subaru/BMW/VW/Merc dealership and have a talk to some of the chaps that work there. Irrespective of that "survey" and what some owners of youngish report (all three year old cars should be relatively problem free IMHO!!) and thus which marques emerge with shining honours in this survey, there are plenty of horror stories associated with any marque if you know where to look.

Thrash/Neglect/Abuse or some combination thereof, ANY car and eventually that car will have problems. Neglect can simply mean failure to do those simple, regular checks under the bonnet. Another colleague, lulled into a sense of false security with his fairly new and highly regarded German car, failed to check at all. Why should he, the next service was not for another 10k miles so why bother. He failed to spot the early stages of coolant loss. A quick blast down the motorway resulted in complete and rapid coolant loss and a new engine is now required following resultant severe overheating. The hassle he has and still has made him vow never again to buy one of those.

So who's to blame for that incident? The driver, the service dept at the dealership or faulty product. He blames the car.

In my own personal experience of other cars and owners (owners sometimes seek me out for opinions because "you know about cars John" ....) quite often the car gets the blame where in actual fact, driver ignorance, lazyness of plain deliberate neglect is often the real cause. But, once the damage is done, who you gonna blame?

OTOH, neglect doesn't necessarily result in failure. Another so far very "lucky" work colleague proudly boasts he's never changed the oil in his Montego Estate in all the years he's had it - just tops it up now and again and it often runs low. The car has 175,000 on its O series EFi motor and still runs well. There are holes in the leading edge of the bonnet and rear arches where neglected stone chips have done their stuff over the years but hey, doesn't affect the MoT so why bother even if a tidy bonnet is easily available from local breakers at about 15-20 quid. Ten minute job to swap. Wheel arches can be inexpensively fixed too.

Sure cars go wrong as a result of suspect quality. However, I too have contact with a Rover service workshop guy. He frequently speaks to his customers and is of the opinion that head gasket failures are sometimes obviously due to driver neglect. Coolant loss leading to overheating being the main cause. "Oh, look at the temperature gauge - bit high but engine running OK so just press on to the next motorway exit" .... by which time more than a head gasket is required. Have a familiar ring to it? Doesn't ever happen? Human nature being what it is .....Oink-Oink-Flap-Flap .....

Still, keep shtumm and lets blame the car ......

MGJohn

NotoriousREV WROTE about his 600ti .....

>> plus thanks to my company's car policy it was run almost entirely on cheap oil and pattern filters. <<

There you go ..... see what I mean ....

Try running your newish Impreza on that stuff and see how it shapes up .....

muttant_matt WROTE:

>> I was also wondering why lots of Elise owners weren't fitting the 220/620 Turbo engine into their cars as that seems the obvious thing to do <<

Matt, numerous enthusiasts have explored this possibility .... and decided it's simply not on. The most successfull T16 turbo transplants I know of are those into Maestro and Montegos ...... quite a few about now and I have firm plans for one (Yes, I LIKE Montegos). If you ever get the chance to try such a beast, try it. A real eye-opener provided suspension and brakes suitably up-rated .... if not, best to decline .....

mutant_matt

Thanks John