Carlos The Jackel

Medium - Long journeys in a VTR gave me a very painful back - I would also recommened changing the seats, the seats are the car's weakest point as they are truely cr@p.

[Edited by Carlos The Jackel - 3/1/2003 10:27:12 PM]

BCA

LOL

[Edited by BCA - 3/4/2003 1:10:32 AM]

BCA

Im currently considering this car, however a few issues are bugging me.

The pedals are VERY cramped - is this something you get used to or is there some way of adjustment/ fixes for it?

The seat base is angled to be lower at the back - felt a bit odd, my sh!trun dealer didnt think there was any adjustment.

The steering wheel was a little close to my legs - any adjustment??

Are there any Saxo owners on here who are about 6'3" with size 9 1/2 feet? I love the car and as first cars go, its about the quickest I can insure. Its no scooby, but given time...

I really want the car, but I want to be able to drive it without having to fumble about for the brake pedal for example?!!

Thanks in advance for all help.

Ben CA

LG John

I'm 6 foot and have size 9.5 feet and yes you do get used to it very quickly. I did 33000 comfortable miles in my VTS including some long journeys. The pedals and steering wheel are fixed but you do get used to it quickly and the pedals are good for heel and toe. Actually you can just roll your foot You'll find you'll start to drive it with your legs splayed a little around the wheel but again you get used to this. Consider putting these concerns to a dealer and seeing if you can get one for a weekend and get some miles under your belt in it.

Have you got an insurance quote for a VTS? The reason I ask is that they are not much more to buy but are a lot faster when you wind them up. With some companies they don't cost much more to insure either despite group 14 V 7 as lots of rude boys have nailed VTRs!!

BCA

Ah good, it seemed a bit odd at first, im very tempted to put an aftermarket seat in instead!

I would love a VTS - but as im 17 and on a provisional liscense, im already pushing my luck in getting insured on a VTR!!

My real concerns are that dad will find it difficult on a test drive - which should be tomorrow.

Do you know of any points to look out for? I have been on the Saxosport forums but they all seem a bit too max power on there to be of any use.

LG John

Ahh best go for a vtr then

I bought mines new so not sure what to look out for if you're going 2nd hand. The gearbox's are renowned for having crap syncro's which cause crunching on high rev fast changes. They shouldn't do this and after some arguing with Citroen I got them to accept this and change my box. After that that car was MUCH faster and I could make lightening quick changes a fraction before the red-line without a CRUNCH! The bodykit can sometimes be a little loose and look pretty poor quality but always check it secured in place. Check carefully for crash damage as there isn't much to the the car and it will crumple a lot even at low speeds.

I'd be tempted to change the seats too. Now that I've got the scooby I can't imagine not having that level of support.

BCA

Yep - im used to my dads cerb which holds you in all the right places. I thought his pedals were cramped but the saxo is something else! Im hoping changing the seat will allow me to avoid the steering wheel problems as well.

Reckon its a pretty decent first car? Thanks for the info on the gearbox, will definately check that out.

Big Col

I test drove a 106 GTi, which is similar to a Saxo VTR i assume and there was no way I could get comfortable in it. I'm 6'2" size 10 feet. Even with slim soled trainers i was having difficulty with the pedals.
Even if I had got comfy there was no chance of carrying back seat passengers. The back of the drivers seat was about 3 inches from the rear bench.

Saxo/106... car for midgets/women

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

BCA, take it easy, even a VTR will get you in trouble with your limited experience, Im not trying to be a killjoy but having bought and repaired a fair ammount of salvage I have spent some time around salvage yards and the number of VTR's (and other Saxos) is astounding and they do tend to be very bent indeed. I had a Golf GTI when I was 18 and drove like a **** but didnt hit anything (luck rather than skill), theres no way I would let my kids have anything daft until they had got the experience.

Go on a track day to learn how to drive it, I had the entire Bus company skid pan to make my mistakes on and it amazed me how easily you can get into trouble.

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

J4CKO does have a point, I know I wouldn't have let me have a VTR just after I passed my test, I know it doesn't seem fair, but I'd recommend spending your first year driving in something with lower limits. Being young and foolish you will (probably) feel the need to push the car as close to its limits as possible, and unfortunately a VTR can bite back (more than a base model) when you go beyond your own abilities, and isn't cheap to fix.

Having had one for 2 years things I'd say to look out for:
Underside rust, the body panels themselves are rust proof, but Citroen seem to have problems with underseal (they don't know what it is). So get it up in the air and have a prod around underneath, especially around the radiator.
As stated above - accident repair, look for any panels that seem to fit properly (as they will not have left the factory like that ) it is easier to look at the paint (especially metallic) to see where it has been resprayed. The paint is super thin, so panels without stone chips have probably been resprayed, have a special look along the back of the door fram.
Alloys - replacement stock ones are not cheap - if they are orange it is probably because the previous owner has used wonder wheels cleaner on them. It can be cleaned off, but will return.
Brakes - check they have not rusted away, it should be easily possible to lock all 4 wheels into 3 figure speeds.
There should not be a huge number of rattles in the interior, a couple is normal, but any more than that implies things have been taken out.
If it is a pre-facelift car check that the spare alloy is still there (underneath the car, has to be wound down from the floor of the boot).

Aftermarket seats are a good idea, the stock ones are attrocious, and if you mount them a little lower you have a bit more clearance to the steering wheel. You get used to the pedals, my size 11a were fine as long as I wore thin trainers.

BTW, it is possible to fit 5 grown adults and 4 sets of golf clubs in one, but I wouldn't recommend it, as changing gear is a nightmare.

LG John

I think a vtr would be a good first car. Its peepy enough and got sporty enough handling to let the driver get used to the dynamics of a hot-hatch but it lacks the outright pace to get into silly trouble too quickly. I'd probably rather my kids (if I have any) cut their teeth on something like a VTR than a 1.1 saxo. The 1.1s when pushed (which lets face it a 17 yo will do!!) just slides around in an uncontrolled manner. At least with a vtr it responds well to your inputs. In all fairness if a 17yo is going to drive stupid and have a crash it'll probably happen irrespective of the car.

BCA

Thank you for your concerns, I was wondering how long it would take for the 17yr old in a VTR stuff to come up! Im not too bothered to be honest, I have driven far more difficult cars to handle over the years.

I have been driving on private land since 10 and have driven everything from a transit to a Cerbera 4.5. Yes im sure the VTR has the potential to scare, but im not exactly a boy racer. I have been brought up on a diet of trackdays/ sprints and I know where its best to push the outer limits of a car and driver. I will be doing a few airfield days in the VTR, it would be rude not to!

Thankyou for all the pointers, all I have to do now is find a decent car near me. Anything else I should look into??

Midmotorsteve

I wouldn't really class a VTR as a fast car for a 17 / 18 year old, i've never drive one but a mate is on his 2nd having smashed the first he's 28 and 11 years driving with no accidents untill he got the VTR, his theory as to why he crashed it has 2 parts. first only had it a month wasn't used to it. second it doesn't hold the road like you'd expect it to plain and simple.

My theory its the car it made him drive like a dick, have you ever seen one being well driven?

Needless to say i wrote of my first fast motor at 18 i put a Celica GT into a wall at 90mph lucky i didn't have a scratch on me, car had £14,000 worth of damage tho and was valued at only £6500 the assessor though on first inspection that it wasn't a write off, bit wrong!

Touch wood, none since 7 yrs accident free !

robby

i bought a new one back in nov 97, i had it back in the dealers 9 times in 3 months for various probs.
The main things were stalling and 150 miles to a tankful (faulty ecu), paint coming off bumpers where paint joined black bit (wasn't keyed in properly), water leaks in boot (sunroof surround distorted) and leak from rear window meaning wet seat belts (window not seated properly)

Danbo

I had one before I got the VTS, superb car. I had no problems at all with it over a year of ownership over 24000 miles.

Good fun to drive, but all saxo's suffer from very snappy rear ends should you lift off (which can be a good thing if you want it to) so need to be treated with respect.

Go for it! You wont regret it.

And my first car was a Mazda 626 2.0 which would do over 130 mph and didnt handle at all, and i didnt have any problems. As has been said earlier, you can crash anything if you drive like a dick! If you are sensible then no problem.

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

LOL now that's an excuse and a half I can only assume his previous form of transport was a train (without re-opening a can of worms (having owned both for about 2 years) a VTR will corner at very similar rates to an Impreza)

Ben, the only other thing that has sprung to mind is the passenger footwell, it gets flooded when (not if) the rubber strip around the sunroof dies, a simple 5 minute job to take out and replace, but worth checking in case the pervious owner has ignored it and been keeping fish in the footwell. A VTR is not a quick car (0-60 in just under 10 and an indicated mid 130s flat out), but the suspension setup is very good (so you are going quickly before you get near its limits) which is where my concerns would lay if an inexperienced 17 y/o were to have one as his/her first car. It sounds like that will not be an issue for yourself, and I'm sure you will enjoy it (been my best car for smiles per pound). Rear tyres - last much longer than the fronts (4 times as long in my case) so if the car is 3+ years old check if they have ever been replaced, if not then replace all 4 when you next replace the fronts, the rears may look OK but old rubber does not give much grip.

LG John

In the dry my VTS would outgrip a standard Impreza. But, the bumpsteer and geometry mod changes the balance though

BCA

Is it really that good or are you taking the biscuit a little?? IF it is anywhere near as capable as a standard impreza in the corners then im going to have a cheshire cat grin on every B-road.

Certainly sounds like the perfect first car!! Cant wait to try one, dad was meant to test drive a VTR today but it was sold by the time we got there. Will have to wait for the next decent car to come along...

LG John

The saxo struggles with bumps and sudden changes in camber so on broken and dodgy b-roads or corners where you drop to 2nd gear (hence traction issues on exit) the scooby would take it. But on smooth roads such as a track or sweeping a/b class road then the VTS was limpet like. Remember the MKII vts has lower profile tyres (195/45 15s) so it grips a little harder than the VTR. The saxo was a great laugh on roundabouts. I took my scooby for a drive down a b-road today and let rip for the first time in ages as I've just had my geometry done again. The saxo couldn't have kept up with that but it puts in a very good show

There are times when I still miss the VTS and its been 8 months now They are fantastic little cars in terms of per£

MattN

VTR's and VTS's have a problem with sticking front fog light switches - which mean the drivers are unable to turn them off in normal driving conditions, and on many it seems to effect the operation of the dipped headlight's. It switches them off only leaving the side lights and fog lights on.

PhilsGT4

Hi,
I had a 97 VTR and my mate still has a 01 VTS - th ebuild quality is not great admittedly but they are a brilliant car with regard to fun factor!
I lowered mine 60 mm on 15" alloys and the handling was superb - I regularly cane B roads and the saxo was perfect for them. My mates VTS has a superchip and a few other goodies with a proven 147 at the wheels - it was quicker straight line than another friends 306 Rallye with full touring car exhaust system and induction kit. He regularly eats 328's and other unsuspecting victims!
You do get used to the pedals!!!
I did nearly 50,000 miles in mine in 18 months and the only mechanical problems I had were clutch went which i replaced with a BlackDiamond power clutch and the gearbox which I got a reco for around £300!
Never had any electrical probs or paint problems.... Maybe I was lucky - at the end of the day its up to you but you won't be disappointed with a VTR - I know three other mates with them and they still aren't!

Hope this helps

Phil
Celica GT4

Carlos The Jackel

I can confirm having been in Robertio's car on many occasions that the VTR's corner at stupid speeds. I drove it a few times but never cornered like Rob did in case I ended up in a field!

BCA

this is really very encourageing, im really hoping to get one as soon as possible. The only slight problem with the cramped pedals, although im sure I will get used to them, dads taking the test drive and im not sure what he will make of them.

It certainly sounds superb for me though, will have to look into some replacement seats and that'll be it! Will dad be impressed on the test drive though???

LG John

Coming from a Cerbera.....no probably not

DazW

iTrader: (1)

<Hijack Alert> ...but does anyone have any info on the Super 1600 Saxo? ...im sure it was a UK company who built them & that they had a website???

Cheers,

DazW
...also GT4

BCA

I doubt hes going to compare it to the cerbera, theres nothing out there atm that does for the money/performance/sound/looks/practicality. But will he be impressed by a VTR overall? - does it instantly feel chuckable? Can you get used to the pedals in a short test drive or will they make the car seem awful??

By super 1600 I assume you mean the supercharged VTR/VTS saxos?? I have seen a fair bit of info about them - with some very nice figures well over 200bhp, which in a 920kilo car is pretty quick. There are a few companies that do this, look on http://www.saxosportsclub.com/forum/ (when its working) Sadly, there are also a few rebuilds too...

[Edited by BCA - 3/3/2003 4:54:59 PM]

DazW

iTrader: (1)

BCA,

I actaully meant the Kit cars that run/ran in the 1600 class of the WRC- although a supercharged Saxo sounds like a better idea Im off to 'lurk'

DazW
GT4

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

Ben, it depends on how your dad views cars, my dad hated mine as he found the pedals too close together, and felt that there was no protection if he pranged it, some sort of remark about it being made of bacofoil (he likes big cars). My mum on the other hand loved it on her shot (she seemed to have problems with speed limits in it though ).

Daz, what sort of info are you after? I might still have all the reviews / articles around the house somewhere. For performance enhancing: LAD used to do 160 and 180bhp conversions on the VTS, as well as their own spec cars, however they had a mixed reputation as far as making quoted power was concerned (the last time I heard).

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Can a Saxo VTR really do mid 130's flat out ?

Citroen speedos must be well dodgy, as for a Saxo VTR being the best thing to let young drivers out in, maybe you have a point about handling responses but this may make you think again

http://www.parkers.co.uk/choosing/euroncap/citroen_saxo.asp

The Punto gets 4 stars but doesent handle, cant win really !

As for driving on disused airfields, fine but there isnt really any obstacles on an airfield, you get to explore the handling limits which is good but its no use when you get into normal day to day driving which is by and large a hateful tedious experience which occasional moments that make it worthwhile.

I do think (based on what myself and mates were like) that there should be a cap on horsepower for the first couple of years like with bikes, effectively insurance doe it but there is always someone with more money than sense, I propose a 400 BHP limit for all those under 18, sorry meant 40 bhp.

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

If you are on the autobahn it is possible to sit at a steady (indicated) mid 130mph speed 4 up If you can find a flat enough section it should be possible to exceed that with less weight in the car, but I found it bounced around too much (1 up) to get a good look at the speedo. Bear in mind the car is very tail happy when braking from these sort of speeds, and even under gentle braking in a straight line will wander.
I know the speedo was out, but it would still average over a true 120mph at v max.