GaryC

Mus, nothing is as well built as a merc of 10 years ago, but then nothing costs like a merc did 10 years ago, and Mercs build quality is still up with the best, on a par with BMW and certainly beats Audi's even my old Alfa's are better built than current Audis. They look good, and feel good, but once they get on the road they have more trips to dealers than anything else I know. A friend with an 8 month old 2.4 A4 has been back in the dealer 14 times in that 8 months his car has had a new CVT gearbox, new cylinder heads, new rear suspension, umpteen electrical problems...the list goes on.

The ML is more than Hot-Hatch money, but is just a bit 'more car' car for car comparison between the two has to be the stupidest contest to date on here I was using the example of HH performance to show these things are not slow. Lets face it, if all you look for is bang-per-buck, a £4k motorbike will obliterate most cars! Likewise, my £13k weekend car will obliterate any hot hatch..in reverse

The ML does lose more money than the X5, but that is more down to arrogant BMW dealers propping prices up. The ML still loses less than 50% in 3 years...what other new cars can claim the same?? It also makes them a fantastic 2nd hand buy. As I said, I got in a fully loaded ML430 for less than £25k. The equivalent X5s were £40k+ That whole lot of car for not a whole lot of bucks

If you want to see the rear legroom you are welcome to come and look at mine anyday..... Don't forget, it is a very square vehicle, with a squared cabin offering rediculius space - front, rear and in the boot. Interor space is 25% more than a Range Rover!

Most new VWs do beat the M-Class on build quality, but then most new VWs beat most cars on build quality. But most VWs are also bland to look at and blander to drive, and the forthcoming VW offroader is way more expensive than the M-Class.

If you have another suggestion of what could have filled my criteria....
...better than the M-Class then lets hear it.....?

[Edited by GaryC - 11/2/2002 5:51:01 PM]

GaryC

Following on from ‘useful’ comment above, thought you might like to see these..

This ML430 was hit side on by a car with a (Police estimated) impact speed of approx 50 mph The impact was so hard that this 2-tonne+ SUV was flipped on it’s roof Passengers in the ML walked away uninjured although obviously shaken. The passengers in the car were unfortunately seriously injured and face months of re-hab











and probably the greatest testament to the structural integrity of the passenger cabin, the inside of the ML on the side hit. The seat hasn’t even been touched, nor the cabin area ruptured!!




Where would you want your family??


[Edited by GaryC - 12/2/2002 1:37:06 PM]

Dave Coulshaw

Anyone had any experience of driving/owning one of these?

Tommy 2000

Hampshire police have!

DARREN

Lots of my friends work for MB and told me to stay away from these
vehicles!!
still got lots off teething problems!!!

Dal

Dave Coulshaw

Can all these friends who work for merc give any specific reasons? or problems?

M8TT J

My Father buys and sells these cars for a living, he has never had any problems with these cars and they never come back.

I myself love them and think that they are one of if not the best Executive jeeps on the market.

Check out http://www.trevormercedes.co.uk

GaryC

Dave - I've just bought one. I think they are great. Drove an ML320 and didn't like, but the 430 feels so much firmer and better planted on the road, surprisingly quick as well and has a luurvly V8 soundtrack Pretty nimble for a big truck although not exactly an A-B backroad tarmac ripper

Difficult to find, but well worth a drive. I also looked at an X5, very similar really, built a bit better but didn't quite like the overall styling as much - plus the ML was over £10k cheaper at 2yrs old - You can take the man out of Yorkshire but you'll never take Yorkshire out of the man

Bobby Peru

Built in the USA, need I say more, get a 270, built in Austria and nearly as quick with much better consumption, hold it's value better as well too.

GaryC

The 270 CDI is a dog - I looked at one. It is damn slow (ie 50% slower to 60 and even worse above that), it is noisy both outside in intrusive in the cabin), comparing side by side there was no difference in build quality, and the fuel consuption is only 4/5mpg better

I am a big fan of new diesels (I have just come from a BMW 330d) and the merc diesel version of their cars are exceptionally good, but the M-Class oil burner is not good and only bought by people who need the emmision benefits for tax reasons. It needs the 3.2 6-cyl diesel if not the 4.0 V8 diesel.

M8TT J

For the record my father has informed me that is little difference in MPG between the ML320 and the 430 V8....

Without wishing to plug him...have a look at his site...all his cars are beautiful and come with a warranty..not that you will need it as they are so reliable and also he is £2-4k cheaper than all the main agents....

gaz turbo

dave if your after one go to or ring the mercedes garage in sunderland it used to be under anserson mercedes but they have took it back,

anyway reason is my dad has put his one ml430 on the forecourt for a good price abit cheap if you ask me but hey.. he has just gone for a new range rover, he is a fanny when it comes to looking after things so its immaculate and done i think 20k miles

and people are right these are not slow and travel beautifly

TomM

270 isnt nice, 320 isnt much better, 430 is lovely, 55 is mental!

Ive driven all but the 55 and I have to say I wouldnt own any of them .....except the 430, it just seems like a different car from the lower models!

The lower ones IMO dont handle or drive well at all, the 430 seems to be alot more surefooted. Drive one, the gurgle is smile making!!, hope you dont mind spending time in petrol staions though, the 430 I had for 2 days was Ulrika thirsty!

Mark Jackson

Could have had a ML320, didnt really like it after having it for 2 weeks (was buying off father in law). Drove reasoably well but was horrendous on fuel, best was 25 on a run, about 18 round town, ended up buying a new VW Sharan Diesel which I think drives better and isnt really any slower in the real world cos you dont have to wait for the gearbox to make its mind up.

I drove the X5 and felt like a right tool, it was a 3.0 (bit quicker than the merc) but was very hard riding and noisy, cornered quite well but with solid suspension and foot wide tyres it damn well should, you will never get let out of junctions !

mus100

Yeah stay away, friend of mine in the states run's a ML500 (amoung other very nice cars) built in US and are crap quality! Not particulary fast considering the engine size either, very cramped in back! And the badge on the front says it all (I'm a stuck up **** hole) sry no affence to anyone who drives one!

GaryC

Cramped in the back?? are you serious? My 6'9 neighbour had a drive of mine, and sat behind him I had over a foot of space between my knees and the back of the drivers seat. Although the rear seats do move forward, and when on the most forward setting the rear legroom does get down to 3-series/A4 levels.

The build quality scaremongering is bull****. The lower models are poorer, but the 430 and especially the facelifted model (ie the 500) are more than fine. Granted they are not up to merc standards of 10 years ago (but then what is?) but compare it with a Range Rover/jap crap 4x4 and it is second only to the X5. It is easily the second best build quality of the cars I have owned (second to the 330d - better than my Impreza, Alfas, VWs, older BMWs.....)

As to performance - it is a 2 tonne truck, yet still hits 60 faster than many hot hatches! mmmm slow

Arseholes are those who makes opinions about drivers based on what cars they drive, and then put bull**** stories about cars they know nothing about....no offence intended

TomM

Have to agree with Gary - as I said the top end MLs are solid big things with power to boot, the 430 is lovely and there certainly wasnt any issues with build in the one I drove!

I would recommend them all day long, what else will you get for the money?, an older shape Range Rover? - err, dated. An X5 will still cost you 10k more, come on, the Merc ML430 and upwards is a top car and well worth looking into!

Mark Jackson

Garyc, I hope you arent including me in that ?

Build Quality on the Merc is good, but not as good as say an E class and not exactly any better than the Sharan we have just bought, performance is insipid until you abolutely floor it and it wakes up, then you get a nice 24 valve wail, havent driven a 430 which I would imagine is more of the same and without it being hugely faster I cant see it worrying any of the current crop of Hot Hatches. Handling was a load better than the Maverick I drove (thru no fault of my own, what a pile of sh*t) for a while but still compared to a proper car still very ponderous.

Basically unless you need four wheel drive get something else cos they are a bit of a white elephant, the X5 is just a pumped up 5 series for School run Mummies, round where I live there are hundreds of the bloody things and we didnt fancy joining the ranks thank you very much, People carrier at least isnt a status symbol

I dont need status symbols, I have nothing to prove....

GaryC

Mark - no I wasn't, reffering to comment directly above.

As said above, the 430 is totally different to the 320 - no idea why. I drove two 320s and it totally put me off. Build quality was poor, it felt very skittish on the road, steering too light and all together not rooted to the road - very much like a Range Rover. I had dismissed the M-Class until an enterprising dealer found me a 430 and brought it over to Manchester to try. An hours test drive later and I realised it was a different animal. A lot better built (that particular one was also very well looked after which helped), but more importantly very surefooted, felt very planted on the road, far better steering weight, not wallowy in the corners and really quiet nippy. It is a big 2-tonne car, and *only* has c290bhp and 300lb ft torque, but that still c145bhp/tonne, all but the top flight of the current hot hatch brigade struggle to make that

Alfa 147 2.0 - 120bhp/tonne; Audi A3 1.8T Quattro - 126bhp/tonne; BMW 325ti - 127bhp/tonne; 206 GTI - 133bhp/tonne; Focus 170 - 141bhp/tonne; etc Even the Golf V6 only manages 145, and the Civic Type-R/Focus RS/330i are only 10-15% better. The WRX only manages 155 bhp/tonne so it's not the slouch you think ....and has a lovely V8 soundtrack, especially above 3500rpm

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say it is a hot hatch/WRX rival, come to the first corner and you realise the M-Class is not a rival for best handling car, but it is still no slouch on the road, and doesn't have to wait for a turbo to spool up.

If you think they are pure status symbol and would rather have a people carrier, thats your prerogative - personally I wouldn't be seen dead in an MPV, and wanted something faster and more fun - that's mine From my experiance, 'status symbols' are only seen as such by those who crave status?? I don't. I wanted/needed a big car - good enough to carry 4/5 adults with luggage, would tow my weekend car and trailer without breaking a sweat, would give more than ample on road performance and would eat 30,000 motorway mile per year in ultimate comfort/ease. The M-Class fits the bill perfectly - and being higher up, is so much more relaxing to drive, as well as safer as you can see further.

As a 2nd hand option, it is a hell of a lot of car for the money. My 2-and-a-bit year old, less than ave mileage, fully loaded car cost me less than a new UK300.

Each to their own, but don't pre-judge

mus100

GaryC, if a car's built ten years ago, are of better build, isn't that saying somthing. Merc's build quality isn't as good as it was and is easily beaten my BMW's and Audi's.
The Merc also loses money faster than the X5, it also has a higher new price.
Yeah it's faster than a hothatch but the point is, your not paying hothatch money, your paying well over 40 grand, for a 500.
And I really doubt that you had as much rear leg room as you say you have.
So why bother buying one, even VW's beat them on quality!

mus100

Gary C, infact there is quite a few cars that can beet the ML for depreciation, for example the 3 series convertible keeps 63% over 3 years, the TT 65% over 3 years, have I proved my point, I think so!
So whats going to save you most money when it comes to sell your Merc, will it be the X5 or the ML, why bother to waste money on a car which is quite simply not as good!
Also the VW SUV will cost less than the Merc's £29,395, by starting at about £28k.
Audi has a very good quality as well my Dad has had his A4 3 years and hasn't had any problems with it yet.
Talking about bland to look at, atleast they don't look like a piece of ****.
Oh and a better car than a ML, lets think it won't be hard.
BMW X5
TOYOTA LAND CRUISER AMAZON
AUDI ALL ROAD
VOLVO XC90
Want anymore, just ask!
Also you said that I judge Merc drivers, what are you doing to BMW drivers, i believe you called them arrogant!
Your the arrogant one!

mus100

Oh yeah, maybe you should teach your friend how to drive and how to "CHANGE GEAR"

GaryC

Ok so the TT & BMW conv. can hold their own in depreciation against a gas guzzling off-roader - what about non-hairdressing cars

As to 'alternatives'..

BMW X5 - Too expensive, at least £10k more than what I paid for a V8 M-Class
TOYOTA LAND CRUISER AMAZON - Likewise expensive, slow, stupidly enormous, mpg which makes mine look frugal and very plasticy
AUDI ALL ROAD - only an estate car with fancy suspension, won't fit 5 & luggage in, I know, I had a A6 Avant for a week - and no V8
VOLVO XC90 - not out yet, and still no V8

next.....?

I didn't call BMW drivers arrogant - this time last week I was one!! I called BMW dealers arrogant. They are. Opening said they would only part-ex my 330d if they could make a £4k profit on it AND were charging £4k over book for a 2nd-hand X5

eh? I didn't - it is/was the best car for what it does at the price it was

According to VW at the motorshow, the Toe-rag will start at c£35k.

I heard there was a well built Audi A4 out there somewhere Audi build quality is very good - especially the dasboard design and construction, and a massive leap forward from 10 years ago, but from all the cars I have seen/driven it is still not up to BMW/Merc standards, and not even as good as their sister-company VWs. The new A4 seems particularly prone to shoddy build.

mus100

Well for a start the Allroad Audi, has got a V8 a 4.2 one to be exact! Same as what they use in the RS6 just not as highly tuned!
And for depreciation over three years and 36k
SKODA FABIA ESTATE - 55%
YOUR MERCEDES ML - 49%
And if a FABIA is a hair dressers car I don't know what isn't!
And now build quality, why is Audi always far nearer the top the JD Power survey compared to your Merc.
Again I've proven my point

mus100

Oh forgot to say when I was at the motorshow on the first public day, VW were telling people it was going to kick off at £28k, they have also being telling the magazines that! (TOP GEAR DECEMBER 2002)
And alternatives to your Merc:
Nearly New Audi A8 4.2 V8
Nearly New BMW 740i
Nissan Patrol GR - Poor build I know!
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Land Rover Discovery 4.2 V8
Lexus RX300, even if there is no V8 it's got the room!
SAAB 9-5 Estate - Will take 5 with ease!
Audi A6 Avant - say what you like, but I know it will take 5 with ease!
VW Passat W8 Estate - will also take 5, and it's got a W8 never mind a V8!

And can I ask why you bother with a SUV because if you want comfort a standard car is much more comfortable and will give more mpg!?

GaryC

Audi Allroad only comes with 2.7 turbo (detuned old S4 engine) or the 2.5 Diesel.

Skoda Fabia only loses so little as it costs so little to start with!! If it lost any more than 50% it would be cheaper than a bus ticket and no it isn't a hairdressers car...it FAR worse than that

And the JD power survey is crap. It is perceived performance against expectation - ie no 'control' element. Best way to look at reliability of cars is to speak to owners, look at visit's to dealer, or even better, the cost of extending the warranty. My Merc would cost £500 for an extra 2 years. The Audi and BMW would be £400 per year, and the Range Rover was £1000 per year


As to the other alternatives..

Nearly New Audi A8 4.2 V8
- Did look at a 2 year old S8, very nice, but didn't want just a big saloon, wanted an SUV/4x4 for towing and high position (safety, more relaxing on motorway), plus the A8 still has less interior space and half the boot space - wouldn't take luggage (golf bags and trolleys) for 5.

Nearly New BMW 740i
- ditto A8, plus it's and old car and looks dated and very 'old man'

Nissan Patrol GR
- are you serious

Jeep Grand Cherokee
- again looked at, but poor build, very plasticy and loses money like Mrs C on a shopping trip to Selfridges

Land Rover Discovery 4.2 V8
- Do I sound like farmer giles?? Did look at a Range Rover, but horrendous reliability and running costs put me off (£2500 per year for servicing and warranty alone ). Oh and the Disco is only a 4.0

Lexus RX300, even if there is no V8 it's got the room!
- again looked at, but actually quite small inside (no bigger than an A6 Avant) and underpowered.

SAAB 9-5 Estate - Will take 5 with ease!
- will take 5, but not their luggage...and it's a Saab!!!!

Audi A6 Avant - say what you like, but I know it will take 5 with ease!
- I know, I had one, but it won't take the luggage, the V8s are rare and the design is looking dated

VW Passat W8 Estate
- ditto A6, and I wanted more than a Passat - my dad has one

See what I mean, the ML may not be the ultimate in automotive desire, but for what it is, what it does and what it cost, it is pretty unbeatable!

mus100

Fair enough your choice, you wouldn't see me by a Merc never mind a ML, I know what my friends have been like!
SUV's are actually not as safe as you may think, it would do more harm to you in a crash than a normal car would!

GaryC

It's always 'friends' who have had nightmares, yet funny, these 'friends' never seem to be able to say what was wrong, or what problems they had. Anything other than 1st party experiance is taken with such a pinch of salt you could keep the motorway network ice free all winter. So how many of your 'friends' have owned an ML430? bearing in mind there were only c400 imported!

If you discount cars purely because of the badge, then that says more about you than anyone else. Try opening your front door - there's a whole world out there...

As to the safety issue - "if you've nothing nice/constructive to say....." I know there was a big scare 7-8 years ago about older 4x4, and some are still not much better, but it was the sight of an ML that had been in a 70+ mph impact with a car that was the deciding factor. The main point of impact where the car had hit the ML was at the level of the floor of the ML - maximum strength. Not as strong as a ladder chassis vehicle, but 70mph and the ML driver *AND* passengers, walked away!

mus100

Gary, none of my friends in the UK drive one, but 2 of my friends in the Us do! (See BIG world out there!)
Problem 1 - car was damaged upon delivery, took 3 weeks 2 repair due to lack of parts in the USA
Problem 2 - Engine exploaded, car was a right off - it was only 9 weeks old!
Mercedes tried not to give them a replacement, but he eventually got one, after threatening to take them to court.
He then got his replacement and sold it a week later, and bought a X5!
Other friend hasn't had too many problems with his although his was a 320, apart from poor quality trim!
Oh and who was it who wrote Skoda and Audi off, for apparently being poor quality, I wouldn't buy a Merc because I don't like the image!

mus100

Oh and as Mark Jackson said I don't need a status symbol because I have nothing to prove, unlike you! Mercedes are the ultimate status symbol, saying I've got money, when in fact it says I have no taste!
GO GET A LIFE, AND DRIVE A REAL CAR, BUT THEN AGEN YOU DO HAVE SOMTHING TO PROVE, SMALL MAN HOOD IS IT GARY, YOU POOR ******!