jeremy

The Evo/AutoExpress headline reads “Awesome new BMW M5 is shaping up.”

I believe that enthusiasts should take issue with this car and any of its boosters, as it is quite far from “shaping up”. As I will now.

BMW and so many other high performance manufacturers are no longer producing state of the art cars. We now hear that BMW are going to make their M5 into a 500hp 200mph sedan which no doubt will be even bigger and heavier and wider wheeled than ever before. This is not engineering, this is a lazy and cheap way to turn a mostly 1960’s technology steel unibody car into a product that produces too much speed and too much grip to be useful to anyone at all.
I say that BMW is doing this because they are short-sighted and cheap- instead of really revolutionizing what a high performance sedan could be they choose to bait- and switch consumers. Instead of building a car which can actually protect its occupants in a crash at 100mph, they make a car that will travel at 200mph. Instead of actually making a car which can reveal to its driver a feel for the ever-changing road surface and any impending loss of grip- and allow a car to be light/adjustable enough to be retrieved from some emergency losses of grip- a task that would actually require some work such as lightening the car by about a 1000 LBS and requiring engineers to actually study the ability of a car to communicate with its driver- as maybe only Lotus does, BMW choose to simply use readily available electronics, huge wheels and tires to mask all interface with the road- allowing the car to simply glide along unperturbed by anything. Unfortunately all this does is create a road going super-train- only the difference is there are no tracks. Once such a car encounters any of the high number of potentially tragic obstacles the road throws its way, sadly our “train” looses grip, crashes into something and often serves to kill its occupants- over 40,000 dead last year in the US, with a similar per-capita number in Europe- and our driver was never even in the picture, he/she could never predict or feel the limits of the car.

Truly great cars can be made, they can be made light, exceptionally safe, economical, non-polluting, fun to drive and communicative- however currently greed and simple-minded perception force upon us no choice. Lets stop buying these under-engineered 21st century versions of the 1960’s musle-car!

andym172

I think the technology to make a car both light and able to protect its occupants is a few years away yet.

The car could be made of carbon fibre but this would cost £££'s

They're not wrong in building a 500bhp 200mph saloon, but I agree, it would be good to have a lighter, more economical car that could protect its occupants at almost any speed.

Would I buy the next generation M5 - yes (but right now I could probably only just afford a wheel)

Andy.

Brewster

Whatever Trevor!!!

Maybe some people (all people except you) want to drive fast, while also enjoying BMW luxury!! - You couldnt possibly, in this day and age, make a car as luxurious as the M5 with out encuring the weight penalty!

And with America producing the worlds biggest and crapest cars, I dont think you can really criticise the German's

clarence

Actually, the current M5 is a very good handler despite the weight. It can still be thrown around the track (or else they wouldn't use it as the 'Ring Taxi).
If the next M5 is to weigh 2,000kgs, but handles like a 1,500kgs car, then I would say they have made a state-of-the-art car in a certain way. The gain in weight is not good, but advancement in chassis design and engineering is.
PS. If the car just grips and grips, then there's no need for crash protection at 100mph, as it will not crash. Also, the M5 is not a muscle car, as 60's muscle car does not handle well.

[Edited by clarence - 6/16/2002 12:22:01 AM]

jeremy

Clarance,

The current M5 is not a great handling car. It is great handlng for a 4000LBS car. The current M5 does not have anywhere near the handling of the Impreza, the Mitsubihi Evo, the Porsche 996 or quite a few others. If designed correctly it could have such handling.

ALso to say that the M5 has so much grip it is hard to crash is not true. At high speeds- the heavy and not very adjustable and aquaplaning M5 will have no trouble falling all over its feet with its Stability program stuttering all throughout-while the car smashes into the armco or whatever else is near it.

GaryC

With safety features comes weight. With performancce comes risk.

If you want a car that is more focussed on protecting occupants than performance - buy a Volvo. The BMW M5 is an awesome car. Period.

Yes they could have made it lighter, but it would take away what the M5 stands for. It is an uber-performance saloon, not a sports car. It is infinitely safer than a lightweight elise or similar. It is a compromise between performance, comfort and safety - compromise is what motoring is all about nowadays - and the M5 does it better that just about everything else.

Have you driven an V8 M5? They will out handle and out drag most cars on the road, and near enough anything with 4 doors..despite a higher (though pretty average for the market) weight.

Comparing it with a 911 is interesting. The M5 offers performance which is not far from a std 996 Carerra. It will lap a circuit in near identical times, yet it does so with 5 seats and 4 doors. A big boot, luxury/comfort only bettered by an S-class. It has more kit than a 996, far more space, easier/cheaper maintenance AND costs £10,000 less in the first place! Quite an acheivement I would have thought!!??

As for the next generation car - V10, 500bhp+ and a kerb weight which should be no higher than the current car despite heavier engine, even greater safety demands...

NotoriousREV

You also seem to be blaming a hell of a lot of road deaths on BMW

The majority of road deaths occur in older, smaller vehicles. The Mercedes S class was supposed to be one of the safest cars ever built, and we all know what happened to a rather famous occupant of one of those.

The human body is designed to travel at speeds below 20mph. If you want to stay safe travel below 20mph, and do it away from other objects travelling faster than 20mph. Even then, I wouldn't guarantee your safety.

nigelward

It is all very well making a car the safest in the world but if the occupants can't be bothered to use these features, ie the seat belts, then the outcome was a forgone conclusion when the car hit the concrete pillar.

The only person wearing a seat belt in that particular S-class is still alive today.

rr_ww

Jeremy

You seem to have an intense Dislike to all things BMW. Don't know why and not bothered either. But parts of your "argument" are libellous and not entirely rational!

Remember cars don't cause accidents, (unless its mechanical failure) people cause accidents and on a public road at least should you be driving anywhere near the limit of a super saloon like the M5?
Richard



[Edited by rr_ww - 6/16/2002 3:47:35 PM]

cletterridge

Not every German car is lardy and low-tech:

http://www.benerridge.freeserve.co.uk/economy.htm

Proof that really forward thinking engineering can at least sometimes escape from the otherwise ruthlessly efficient German accountancy departments from time to time!

Mark Jackson

It is scary, some of the muppets that are getting ever faster cars (present company excepted), until recently over 300 BHP was rare, remember all the controversy when Vauxhall brought out the 180 mph 370 BHP Lotus Carlton?

Now we have the current M5 with 400 BHP, the Audi RS6 is coming out with 450 BHP and the new M4 will have 500 BHP and weigh TWO TONNES !Perhaps they could put that engine in the X5, imagine how quickly Cheshire mummies could get the kids to school !

No wonder drivers of older lighter cars get killed, cos they get hit by huge overpowered German lumps.

Now dont get me wrong I am glad that cars like this are made and I dont think that this situation will exist much longer as fossil fuels start drying up. But what scares me is that the only qualification to buy a car like that is to have the money to buy it ! They arent even that expensive at 50k ish (compared to prices super cars in the past) and as they get older they will get cheaper, especially as they get more common and have less rarity value. Plus they are everyday cars and not weekend toys like Lambos and Ferraris.

I dont think anybody needs a two tonne 500 BHP car to have fun, An Elise is fun cos its small light agile and has "Enough" power. to get any kind of fun out of monster like these you will have to be going horrendous speeds and I dont care what brakes you have a 2 tonne car doing 200 MPH will take two counties to stop when mr director type bloke is showing off and gets it wrong.

My opinion is that the Gentlemans agreement (like Japan) should come into play and limit the power of these cars before a spate of high profile accidents forces Brussels or Blair to do it for us.

Or could it be that the 225 bhp my T5 has no longer sounds like much and I have sour grapes !

clarence

German cars have a lot of power, but all of them (bar Porsche) have a top speed limited to 155mph. So the Germans are doing sth.
To say the M5 handles well for a 1800kgs car is the truth, & u're wrong in comparing it to Evo, STi, 996 etc. U know, the Evos are as quick as Ferrari F355 over most race tracks.
Evos & Sti are road rally cars, 996 is a sports/GT car, M5 is a super saloon. They all offer different things for different ppl.
The M5 can lap the Nurburgring very quickly, so what does it say? It says the car HANDLES, GRIPS and have GOOD POWER.
Imagine going on the Autobahn, I'd rather be in a M5 than a lot of other cars as I know it can handle, grip, stop & accelerate as neccessary.
So stop fussing, the M5 is A GREAT CAR,OK?

jeremy

The dodge viper and the corvette can both lap the Nurburgring as fast or faster than the M5 and neither is a great handling car. Great handling road cars are those that handle well on real roads.

father_jack

This post is a load of pointless toss (IMHO of course ) but if the M5 is so overtyred and emasculated by traction control, DSC etc. how come it wears out tyres like a motorbike.
My mates one did in 2 rears at 6,000 and the fronts were arsed 2,000 later. If it weighed less than it's 1800kg or whatever it would take off or snap. Best car on the roads today. My mates lost 15k in a year on his, so shortly they will be in the grasp of normal folks

clarence

The Viper & the Corvette is a 'Sports Car', it cannot sit 5 ppl & cannot carry their lugguage at the same time.
If both of them doesn't lap the same as the M5, then they're wheelbarrows. U should compare them to some Porsche or Ferrari.
Btw, have u got the lap times of the Viper & the Corvette? So, u mean u can have a car that doesn't handle & yet it can lap the Ring quickly? U can provided the driver is very good.
I say again, the M5 is a great car, or else the Germans wouldn't trust it to carry punters round the Ring at full speed.

Reffro

The thing to remember here is this is criticism of car makers from the country that can't get its drivers to wear seat belts, who's drivers ignore red traffic lights and are stupid enough to set the cruise control on a motorhome and leave the wheel to go to the back and make a cup of coffee. Is it any bloody wonder 40,000 of them are killed each year in traffic accidents, and statiscally Britain beats them hands down on per capita accident statistics.

NotoriousREV

I think people need to see the stats for road traffic accidents:

ABD

More accidents are caused by drivers pulling out of junctions without either judging the speed of other traffic, or worse not seeing other traffic, than are caused by excessive speed. Unfortunately there are no car safety features that can prevent this happening. In this situation, I would rather be in a 5000lb behemoth