^Qwerty^

Which is more democratic, an election in the Crimea where a turnout of over 80% and just over 95% of voters backed joining Russia, or the UK Parliament which has repeatedly refused to give the population a vote on being run by the EU, or the EU itself which must be high on the list of the most unaccountable and undemocratic organisations?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Clearly the Crimean referendum is the most democratic of the three, but no doubt the usual SN British political system apologists will be on later to explain why the system that won't give us a referendum on our future also decries as unlawful the system by which Crimea has voted on theirs

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

I have decided that I no longer want my land and property in Surrey to be ruled by Westminster, and since this is a 100% turnout and 100% vote in my favour, then I will start proceedings to be a separate country.

...... Reaaaaaaaaaaallly?!

SJ_Skyline

Passport to Pimlico?

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

Top film.

David Lock

I'd rather live in EU than Russia......

dl

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

daily mail mode: ON

If I were Ukranian, I would too. I mean, all that free health care and benefits from the UK once they become signed up members!

Alan Jeffery

I don't mind if the population chooses to join Starfleet Command as long as they can persuade themselves not to be nasty to anyone who doesn't want to. The Eastern Europeans have a tendency to go in for a spot of rape and murder if somebody in their street doesn't like the same brand of corn flakes.

Geezer

Well, it is democratic in so much as most of the population voted. However, the referendum itself was insitigated by a body that was not democratically voted, so it is illegal.

You can't have your cake and eat it, I'm afraid. Trumpeting something as democratic when you have got round the democractic process to enable that vote, is, IMO, not democratic.

David Lock

Apparently Putin is incandescent with rage after learning that 5% of the voters actually voted against his Russian plans. He has asked his "observers" to visit the misguided 5% and remind them how wonderful Russia is. Just as soon as they are discharged from A&E that is.

Putin has also returned his signed copy of "Guide to Democratic Elections" by Robert Mugabe.

dl

^Qwerty^

So a bit like when we and the US went in to Iraq then, or is that different?

David Lock

Well Parliament was asked to vote on this although the vote was tainted by Blair's less than truthful speech. But this did give a mandate to go to war.

Can't remember what happened in US. Did Bush seek Congress approval?

dl

Geezer

Apologies if I have misunderstood this, but, as far as I recall, the decision to go in to Iraq (whether you agree with it or not) was made by our government of the time, which was democratically elected, according to the laws we have here.

Are you really advocating that a referendum should be held on every policy decision a government makes? You elect a government, and then it makes various decisions for the term of that parliament. Some (most, you can't please everyone) are unpopular, but if you really don't like it, you vote them out next time.

This is like some unelected body, telling Westminster that they are going to hold a referendum on EU member ship, and Westmister have no say in the outcome!

If that is what you are saying, well, I really don't know what to say!

If not, please enlighten me.

^Qwerty^

No, not at all. The US and UK illegally invaded Iraq and brought about a change of government in that country. So I don't see how that is any different to what is happening in the Crimea at the moment, except a lot less blood shed (so far).

So I'm not talking about what happens here, I just see a bizare irony in the whole situation and the stance taken by the US and UK governments.

Martin2005

Well obviously our system is more democratic - it's a bit daft even comparing the 2 isn't it?

As for the EU referendum, well we had one didn't we? And we will have another after the next general election (assuming the Toies win of course)

Martin2005

Are you sure you have such I high IQ? - I'm not convinced

Martin2005

I don't remember us annexing Iraq and claiming it as our own. I'm pretty sure we didn't redraw any maps.

Oh it's all very well stating the 'illegality' as a fact, but that 'fact' is still hotly disputed

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

And whether you're convinced or not matters why? You are not someone I would want to waste spending a single second of my life in the company of so if you want to think I am thick or whatever else you so wish crack on

^Qwerty^

It's not daft; it depends on your interpretation of the word democracy.

As for an EU referendum, AFAIK, we've never had one? I hope you're not confusing that with our vote to enter the EEC?

Martin2005

I'm not confusing anything - the referendum was held democratically and we opted to join the political project (that may well not have been the way it was sold I accept).

Martin2005

You were kind of damned by your own words though. Comparing our system to a annexation of Crimea.

Sometimes you really do let your dislike our politics get in the way of thinking straight

Maz

iTrader: (34)

As Tacitus noted millennia ago, man's innate desire and greed is all consuming. US, UK , Russia in the name of democracy or tyranny. When you look at the means and the end, they're all the same.

They have plundered the world, stripping naked the land in their hunger… they are driven by greed, if their enemy be rich; by ambition, if poor… They ravage, they slaughter, they seize by false pretenses, and all of this they hail as the construction of empire. And when in their wake nothing remains but a desert, they call that peace.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

While all the time your love of them and the status quo makes you sound like a prat!

Martin2005

This was alright until I got to the punchline - which isn't very funny at all

Martin2005

Yes that's right, the only way you can possible argue against me is to attempt to portray my moderate views as extreme - well it won't work matey.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

No. your lack of will to change a clearly broken (well to anyone with half a brain) system is what p1sses me off... such as your constant sniping at UKIP!

Martin2005

I'm all for change (assuming it's for the better).

UKIP are neither 'a change' or 'better'. In fact they are largely a party for angry white men.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

QED

Martin2005

I would of thought you might have done better than that. Maybe you could shoot back with how that isn't the case?

In fact maybe you could share YOUR IDEAS on how we can fix this 'broken political system'. Afterall you spend long enough moaning about it, it would be great to hear something positive from you

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I have posted many times on here about what I think needs to be done. Not going through it all again.

What I will ay is I certainly don't want any more of the Tories or Labour (the Lib Dems are an irrelevance or will be in about a year's time) as their sell by date is long past!

To my mind we need a party of common sense and one that acts for the people of the UK not the good of its own. We need honesty and transparency and we need to be in charge of our own destiny. Why we can't trade with our European cousins withut having to be virtually governed by them on many issues is beyond me.

UKIP may not be perfect and may in many cases not align themselves to my views, but they represent a real shot at giving the greedy self serving mainstream parties a seriously bloody nose and many of their policies (e.g. energy) do on the whole make sense to me.

Immigration is not an issue I feel particularly upset about, but seeing as we are already governed by a party committed to getting net immigration down to less than 100K per year (and failing dismally despite their stupid protestations otherwise) what difference does it make in that respect?

Let's try something different, it can't really be any worse!