jef

iTrader: (13)

the strange system of lack of beleifs in some sectors *****

sorry long-ish story.

woke up, in quite extreme pain the other day from my very lower back.nothing strenuous in the days preceeding the pain, a pain just developed during the night and gradually got worse - resulting in zero sleep. fortunately not working the next day.
next day slither out og bed, walk about hunched over all day, in a lot of pain, couldnt do anything, hardly any position gave releif. so a horrible day all in.
due to work the next day - no sleep again and force myself into work for 7am start. taken 2 voltarol. its a 400m walk to my work from car park - take me 10 mins to complete the walk clinging onto the fence. get to work and speak to manager and say have to go home, cant remain operational.


sent home home phone docs eergency appointmnt please to appease my work, and also book into a osteopath guy ive known for a while. docs earliest 5pm and i can get in with osteo at lunchtime.

so go to him, he gives me good looking over (wahey!!) says can see by my torqued walk and physical examination it looks like a problem with alignment in the bones within a lower vertibrae - so turns out the slight misalgnment is putting pressure on my nerve and causing pain and the muscle in the area to constantly spasm. he had a full model spine with nerves and discs and could shouw me the problem on it an other problems with spines.. so he explained what was likely wrong, treated it as he saw fit, and to be fair after the initial pain from treatment i could stand fully upright, then showed me some excersises which could help further aleviate/strengthen the area - the area was tender and still is, he recommended then going to the gp to get there assessment and any recommendation for pain control/muscle relaxiants if they saw. or whatever they thought. walked away sore but reasonably happy

go to gp at 5pm still in considerable pain, explain situation, and that been to osteo. gp cringes and says please dont go back, it likely not be helpful and costs money. gives me 20 second examination questions my urinary habits- presumably just to check if kidny function was altered (fair enough). i tell gp i need a line for work, but really really want it for the absolute minimum of time, gp says minimum 1 week possible more for these things to heal themselves - i ask put down a minimum line time, im willing to come back for re-assessment (whatever that is ) and hope to get back to work after that. gp grimaces and says ok, but dont bank on it. prescribes me a muscle relaxant and sends me on my way

now i have to call my work tomorow to let them know the script and whats actually problem - theyll put me on the companys OH programme, for there own full body experts to further assess me also - but on my line it says one word "backache". couldnt be less specific. atleast the osteo tried to explain what problem was.

id sound like a liar if i call work tomorow saying ive been to doc and theyve diagnosed me with "backache", and not sure when ill be back!!

and why does the gp not like the osteos involvment here?

again apologies for long post, - many parts of which will be boring as fck! lol

walked away sor

Ellie*

I dont know the difference between what an osteopath does and a physio? I'm guessing osteo concentrates more on bone problems rather than muscular?
Are osteopaths registered and all that so its not just anyone messing with your spine?

My mum has times where her back goes into spasm. The doctors haven't been much help, and she has in th past had private physio, which has helped.

I'm not really sure what a gp can do other than prescribe pain relief/muscle relaxants. Perhaps they presume it's muscle strain and will heal itself?

Did you get diazepam? Did he give you painkillers?
You can still take the voltarol. If you bought it over the counter it's not very strong (12.5mg iirc) . Prescriptions are usually 50mg x three daily I'd take at least 25mg at a time (check the box because you can get extra strength) and it'll reduce inflammation and pain.

Bubba po

Weightlifter? Contributory factor, in my view.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

"health (illness) belief model"....

If you are ill then your employer / HR Dept will expect you to see a medical practitioner and take it from there.

Shaun

RobsyUK

iTrader: (2)

Any twist lift or fall could hace caused it.
Your boss has seen you in pain so should be understanding that you need the week off as docs request.
Takes the pills do the exercises and lay on the floor watching jeramy kyle

What do you mean line for work? Most of us nick car stereos and offer them to the guy with the hoody at the shop. You get them free?
Tell them lower back ache and when they say what type say ask my doc. It was some hebe jebe word..

Hope you get better soon.

john banks

If your first day of absence was the day you saw the doctor then usually you would self certify for up to the first 7 days. Writing backache at this stage seems reasonable at this stage when there is not a definitive diagnosis because it is too early to tell and there is difficulty enough getting prompt MRI scans even when someone has had back surgery a few months ago or has a new onset foot drop (ie they drag their foot, but our local MRI criteria don't include that for GP access).

In terms of causes, an initial approach is to detect red flags (google red flags and back pain) and then relieve pain. If you have no signs of a prolapsed disc or other causes that would make manipulation dangerous then many doctors have no objection to other therapies. Often there is a clash of diagnoses in that some osteopaths with give you a detailed diagnosis based on their examination, and this is often quite different to what an MRI scan shows. Sometimes their claim to be reducing herniated discs by manipulation is understood by conventional medicine as relieving muscle spasm.

Hope that explains a bit and you get well soon.

TelBoy

Agree. Jef, you must have done your back in from the gym before, surely?

Maz

iTrader: (34)

This.
The doctor cannot at this stage give you a prognosis with certainty. Backache is a general term and the cause could be one of many things as John has said above. It is perfectly normal for the sicknote to be non specific at this stage. Once serious problems like cauda equina have been discounted a more general and contracted course of treatment can follow. Pain relief, physiotherapy and finally getting back to your normal routine. MRI scans should be done forthwith if the back pain persists for more than seven days. There are other treatments along the line lumbar epidural etc but take it one step at a time. Don't expect miracles and overnight relief. Patience, understanding and very strong will is what you need as well as any treatment that is appropriate for the underlying cause.

jef

iTrader: (13)

thanks for replies, the work issue is that i dont a have the same boss daily, it changes from shift to shift and im sure there will be some "watering down" in the chinese whispers of how bad i did or didnt appear to be.
its not weightlifting related as ive not been to gym for over 2 years, apart from cv work i do at works gym - however id just been off work for several days as part of my shift pattern.

im not expecting miracles by any means, i understand things take time to heal - and im gradually doing the excersises recommended and from what ive read - but at a VERY gentle pace.
i basically wanted to be a bit proactive, and maybe get a clearer diagnosis than i thought my GP would give me in the vain attempt it might lead to a shorter period of abscence from work - i really do no not want to be off work atall.

ive had previous experience with physio, sports massage, osteopaths ect over the 15 years i spent training very hard and if i picked up the odd niggle or strian - so i did have a bit of a clue what to expect - some of the techniques, infact all i think he used ive had at some point before - its just ive never had this severe an injury before - atleast after i left him i could hold correct posture and not squinting to the side most of the injury/spasm was coming from (according to osteo)

its just the GP had a 1 min prod then proceeded to write a line out, it was left at that, GP didnt mention any excersises ect, just said come back for assessment near end of line. it felt a bit blunt, but seeing it from the above points, if i went back and it wasnt better or was maybe worse they may then refer me to whatever specialist they deem appropriate - it just feels like an excessivly slow process all the while accruing more time off work. i think if i went back and she refferred me, these things can take weeks to materialise, again meaning more time off.
i dont want to go back unfit, but i wouldnt like the actual process of refferal ect to add undue time off. if you get what i mean?

ironically i think it may have happened when me and my son wer watching the strong man finals on telly and mimicing some of the events, i actually think it was when i was showing him how to deadlift properly lol - with knees bent ect - altho the "bar" was a plastic umbrella weighing no more than about 300g's lol

its the only thing i can think of where i used my back in a manner not accustomed to the previous day - guess you just cant tell when these things will happen.

i also was just a bit worried about my works take on it, hence me wanting a bit more info from GP on the line, so i could actually show them what was wrong - historically backache has been used and abused by employees so much it kindof carries a stigma - which i dont want.

jef

iTrader: (13)

just to add, the osteo was quite confident from the way i walked in, twisted, hobbling, that i had one of a couple of problems, one being to do with the mechanics of the body, which he could help try and treat and one which could be a problem with a disc - whcih obviously he couldnt.
but then spent a godd ten to fifteen mins, prodding, pushing, feeling up and down my spine for point of pain or tenderness, checked my leg length, which was slightly out on the affected side - and used his knowledge to deduce its much more likely to be a mechanical problem - he took the time to explain why he came to this conclcusion, and as hes been practicing for over 15 years, said he had seen the injury many many times beofre.
he wasnt forceful in getting me to accept treatment - explained about as much as you could really. now obviously he is getting paid, so some may say has a vested interest in treating me, oralso just because hes been doing it this long doesnt mean hes any good, he could be sh*t, but its the same for any profession, medical or not, i made a judgement call to let him do some work which appeared to be of some benefit. although painful lol.
also pointed out these things take time to heal, not overnight ect and i need to take it easy, go to gp and take there advice , which he commented on maybe anti inflammatory, pain killer and a muscle relaxant - which is what i was prescribed - barr the anti-inflam, as i told gp i had voltarol at home.

tha concludes the story thus far lol

jef

iTrader: (13)

indirecty maybe, the 300g umbrella deadlift is known a spine snapper!! lol

john banks

Defending the GP slightly, you got an emergency appointment on the day at one of the busiest times of the year and it seems that the GP excluded urgent neurosurgical causes, provided analgesia and tried to reset your expectations, however genuine and impressive they may be, that you might be ready to work again in less than a week. I'm sure they'd be delighted to reissue a replacement sick line for the one you didn't legally need (as far as I can tell from the facts) if you told them you were now skipping around the works yard doing cartwheels with running chainsaws in each hand.

The osteopath being paid by the incident was probably glad to take the time with you and their advice may be great and effective since apart from excluding serious causes the GP can't do much for you except symptom relief with medication, advice on likely outcome and offer referral if it is unusual in not being self limiting.

Not sure I see the problem except that you are unfortunate enough to have "backache" on a sick line that covers everything from lazy fat *******s to people that can hardly move even when they have every reason to want to. If the doc wrote "mechanical low back pain" it might make you feel better, but unless someone is obviously swinging the lead we do not write "Low back pain without organic diagnosis based on normal MRI, orthopaedic, neurosurgical, physiotherapy and pain clinic opinions. Opiate and benzodiazepine seeking behaviour. Obesity, substance abuse and socioeconomic problems with yellow flag behaviour" (all that is code for swinging the lead ) and that would go on the DSS report rather than the sick line.

jef

iTrader: (13)

i was never a weightlifter, i was a body builder, beleive it or not 2 very different disciplines and two very different ways of training.

bodybuilders train there muscle to become pumped full of blood as soon as possible, after warming up, then train that muscle with resistance weights of appropriate weight, to cause tiny micro fibre tears in the muscle - to then be repaired with nutrients - its called DOMS, delayed onset muscle soreness - most sports people will have this when there legs or arms or whatever is sore the day after a long run/cycle or whatever.

using to heavy a weight in this process does not speed up the result, it usually means poorer technique is used - increasing the risk of injury, or the movement cannot be completed atall - which is not the point (there are a huge number of variants in between, partial reps, half reps ect ec) the point of which is to squeeze as much blood into that muscle group as possible, and keeping the small micro tears withing repairable range.

weighlifting is about moving a weight from A to B. usually the very heaviest the person can manage, and then trying to increase that weight - parts of the 2 disciplines cross over, but in general a seasoned bodybuilder is at much less risk of injury as there form is extremley important to keep absolutely perfect to get the results, the weightlifter although taking care will usually have some point where form is sacrificied to get the end result -weight moved.

if you watch strong man at new year, you can see it demonstrated all the time, deadlifts - when they are struggling with 3-400kgs (as you would) the use a series of small jerking movements to inch the bar up to count as a valid reptition.

dont get me wrong inexperienced or silly bodybuilders oftyen make these errors also - but thats all part of the fun of learning.

long boring irrelevant lecture over lol

jef

iTrader: (13)

i thought i did a pretty good job of defending my GP myself actually - saying i know understood why GP wrote what they did, and why they said what they said - or maybe i dint make that clear? if so sorry.
all i was concerned with was the lack of info on the sick line - as ive never had a sick line before and therefore just expected it would be abit more than that. and it was based around my fear of the stigma attached with backache within work places.
but after your and others explanations i now understand., but i did still have to wait until half five to be seen!! slackers

plus i wasnt seen on the day, i couldnt get an emergency appointment - they were kind enough to slot me in at the end of the day in 2 days time - so im sure no-one elses treatment was negatively affected - just the gp kindly held back to see me. still so they should, i PAY MY BLOODY TAXES!!

jef

iTrader: (13)

one final -possibly silly question

but would you professionals be laughing if i applied a ralgex type cream, in an attempt to help atall, even if its just for the change of sensation in the area,

is there a serious reason why i shouldnt use it, apart from emptying my wallet some more lol

john banks

Wouldn't laugh at all if it helps.

jef

iTrader: (13)

thanks john. ill give it a go

TelBoy

I hope it's nothing serious, Jef.

Two sides of the coin. About a year ago i pranged my back in the gym, on squats. Using too much weight, the usual. Third time i'd done it, and it felt different, worse. Could hardly stand up let alone walk, thought i'd done some serious damage. Went to the doctor who asked me to do a few rudimentary moves, including bending over as far as i could, and she concluded that i'd just badly sprained some deep spinal muscles. I asked her several times to confirm that i hadn't damaged my spine. Things gradually improved, and after about six months i would say i didn't think about it further.

However, a close friend who'd had a previous operation on her L5 disc, was in bed one evening reading, suddenly felt "something" go in her lower back. Not painful, but a movement of some sort. Over the next few weeks the pain intensified, and an MRI showed rupture in her L4 disc, resulting in further operations. She used to give her kids piggybacks up the stairs to bed and i'm convinced that was contributory.

So from my experiences, you might have a disc problem, and it can be difficult to see a consultant quickly if you're relying on the NHS, if that's what you need. Take all the pain control you need without over-dosing, and try and stand up whenever possible, but get a definite diagnosis as soon as you can. Hopefully it will be nothing more than a twinged muscle.

need4speeduk

iTrader: (26)

Jef,

There was a somewhat similar post not that long ago and after that I vowed not to bother getting involved on such threads. Hey ho

I won't go into huge detail because I don't want to get drawn into another pointless debate, however.....

As long as you

Can think of no real/suitable cause of injury
Haven't had any changes in bowel or bladder function
Have no pins and needles or numbness around the genital area
Have no pins and needles or numbness in your legs, feet, toes
Have no sharp stabbing like sensations of pain down either leg

The chances are it's nothing serious to worry about. That's not to say it's impossible, but the odds are highly stacked in your direction.

As John said, most back pain is self limiting. I can't recall the exact figure but it's something like 80% of bain pain will heal itself within 3-6 months even if left untreated. Most even before that. In fact, the vast majority of back pain will often have no clinically identifiable cause, even under MRI.

It's obviously in a very acute stage at the moment, which can be quite debilitating and painful. This acute stage should last for no more than anything from a few days up to a week, or two at the most. Backs by nature are sensitive niggly little things and most people at some stage in their life will experience the "joy" of back pain.

No one, not a physio, doctor, osteopath, etc etc knows your body like you do. Quite often people are themselves able to distinguish whether something isn't quite right or potentially be giving cause for greater concern.

Take the analgesia and muscle relaxants and if your symptoms haven't vastly improved within a week or two I'd say go back and see your GP. Anything likely to cause the GP concern would hopefully have been ruled out on your initial visit. If after a couple of weeks the symptoms persist then your GP will be able to refer you on to the appropriate person to help you get back on your feet.

All the best

jef

iTrader: (13)

thanks all, im sure all the years of deadlifting and squatting and whatever else may have taken its toll in wear and tear - i keep getting paranoid that i feel a pian shoot down my leg or ive got pins and needles, but its literally a flash - and then i think it might notve been that atall - just over thinking.
needless to say be back at docs later this week to see how it is.

i know the osteo doesnt seem to hold much credance here, but he said its not a soft tissue injury, theres no tear, strain ect - the muscle is just in constant spasm which is whats causing the pain - and tbh thats what it feelslike when im walking about and i cant straighten up.

but suppose time will tell

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

About three years ago I was in excruciating pain with my upper back. I was on painkillers and went to an osteo, who began manipulation.

I then got a referal to a neurologist, and a CAT scan. The specialist called me in and began to explain the problem, I mentioned the osteo and he went ballistic. Apparently I had a damaged disc pressing on the spinal cord as well as the radial nerve, and any further movement might lead to spinal damage and me becoming paraplegic.

The osteo couldn't have known that and continued to manipulate......I stopped going.

THAT'S one of the reasons GPs don't like osteo's.

jef

iTrader: (13)

thanks alcazar

its just me being impatient really - i trust them really, but thats because of relative success in the past with what was clearly (i thought) actually muscle damage. i just need to sit tight for the time being i think.

TelBoy

Stand, don't sit

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I did my back in bending down to pick my towel up when i got out of the shower, so not always caused by lifting heavy objects.

The problem with osteopaths as i discovered to my cost is 90% odd are charlatans.

I spent 10yrs trying to find a decent one to solve a problem with my shoulder, which would pop a rib out and trap a nerve every so often.

The good ones go to proper medical school for 6yrs full time, take the same oath as doctors and can become doctors or surgeons with a few more years if the so chose, they are also governed by the general medical council.

Took me a while but the lad that sorted me out is a magician and really knows his stuff, and more to the point has the gift for it.

feel free to pm me if anyone wants his number, he's in notts but i'd fly round the world to see him if i had to.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Just don't scratch your ***** afterwards

With the Chiros and Osteos I've visted in the past, if you were in serious pain they'd get you have a scan before treatment.

PS My back's a bit sensitive this week: All I did was turn round on my left leg. I put it down to being pretty inactive and sat on my **** for most of the chirstmas period, then the shock of going back to work and spending the whole day on my feet .

jef

iTrader: (13)

made that mistake after cooking chille con carne and finely chopping the tiny hot chillies you get. i thought i was safe as i washed my hands afterwards - thats not enough!! lol, also rubbed my eye and was in quite a bit of distress at the time - much to my work collegues amusement!!

im definately starting to feel the odd "pang" pain shoot down my leg, wasnt sure if i was imagining it, but thats atleast twice today i can positively confirm ive felt a definate pain shoot down.
its not been agony, but sharp enough for me to pay attention, and stop whats i was doing - is this indicitive of anything?

and tel, i find if im sitting i can get the pot noodles and 12 packs of skips down my neck much quicker than if standing

went for a gentle walk today, and 80% of time in house im on my feet anyway - its just now i use my worktops for support now and then rather than costantly "free standing" to take the weight off my spine for abit

Bristol98

Rather than ralgex, I've had great success with rubbing Olbas oil into my lower back (I suffer from sciatica)...

jazzyjembreaze

iTrader: (11)

Jef you should have gone to hospital not GP
Over paid , lazy , & most cldnt do the right thing etc
Hospital you may have to wait cpl hrs walking into A&E but once on the table you would have been fully examined etc
What's your calcium intake like ?
Also how old are you
If your in your 40's like me & used to train a lot , play rugby etc
The pain I kid you not is shrinkage of bone & calcium deff wich is a natural process , but if you have trained hard in earlier life & still have a decent muscle mass but don't train - the pain is exadurated ..
you need to hang m8
Buy a hanging bar , stretch that back out
I know I wake some mornings & wish for a medieval rack so I can be stretched (havnt 1 ov those ) but 10-20 mins hanging sure does the job

Hope this makes sense
Regards

jef

iTrader: (13)

yes it makes sense, my osteo also recommended doing some hanging, but starting off with not a lot of bodyweight, and try work up to hanging a bit more. but he seems to be getting abit of a hard time lol.
i always spent time hanging after i trained my back, and chest also when training - it was good and a part of my training programme.

yeah maybe looking back i couldnt went to A & E, but you just make the call at the time, and i decided against it - one of those things, cant be undone now. plus i honestly felt they wouldnt do that much for me at the time, apart from same as GP, and then go back to GP once its had a week or so to settle down - then take from ther.

my calcium intake is decent, i drink plenty of milk, and dairy products, but not in excess amounts, so i presume its ata reasonable levle - mid 30s i am.

also ill try the olbas oil also, the ralgex has served to change the sensation, not reduce the pain - which is all i wanted from it, so olbas do the same id imagine - its just a mental break really i think

alphaj12

I had great success from a couple of chiropractors. Costs money but never regretted a penny of it. I would absolutely recommend them. Changed my life.