Where are you Lewis?
21 June 2012, 09:20 AM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bring back infractions!
Posts: 4,554
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where are you Lewis?
This story needs your anti-tory diatribe applied to it 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18531008
Personally I look at any method available to me to pay less tax and if I earned as much as Jimmy Carr I'd be quite happy about using a perfectly legal offshore tax avoidance scheme. Feel sorry for him that he's been singled out by Cameron but I'm sure he's not alone.
Unfortuantely the only tax avoidance available to a mere mortal like me is a salary sacrifice scheme for my pension contributions and childcare plus a company share scheme that is held in trust meaning I can't get at any of it tax free for at least five years. That and my savings go into an ISA. Not quite paid enough yet to consider going off-shore
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18531008
Personally I look at any method available to me to pay less tax and if I earned as much as Jimmy Carr I'd be quite happy about using a perfectly legal offshore tax avoidance scheme. Feel sorry for him that he's been singled out by Cameron but I'm sure he's not alone.
Unfortuantely the only tax avoidance available to a mere mortal like me is a salary sacrifice scheme for my pension contributions and childcare plus a company share scheme that is held in trust meaning I can't get at any of it tax free for at least five years. That and my savings go into an ISA. Not quite paid enough yet to consider going off-shore
21 June 2012, 11:06 AM
#2
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely it is up to the Inland Revenue department and the government to ensure that such loopholes do not exist.
Can't blame the bloke for using a legal method of avoiding tax.
Les
Can't blame the bloke for using a legal method of avoiding tax.
Les
21 June 2012, 11:19 AM
#3
I find it quite laughable really. Do you think Jimmy carr handles his own personal accounts and investments? Of course not.
He employs an accountant and IFA to do all that for them....and its their job to make full LEGAL use of methods of investment and expendature to minimise a tax burden. If they says do this or that, Carr is likely to say, yeah go ahead!
If what the IFA/accountant does is illegal, thats another matter. They'll go down for it along with their client. Unless the account/IFA is a crook, in which case he'll skim off the money and bugger off to Barbados when the s**t hits the fan .
The Inland Revenue is in a current state of disarray...it has been for over ten years now as the elder more senior staff retire or leave to be replaced by their incompetant/apathetic understudies. A proprotion of whom don't even know the system they are supposed to be working with (of which we have to remind them of on occasions).
Their methodologies of catching people are a combination of a scatter gun technique, persistently harrassing/hounding anyone caught previously for a tax anomaly (no matter how minor, or if it was in error), and comming down like a ton of brick on anyone who makes a mistake on anything they pick up on (even on errors made by the IR).
So all in all..Cameron first needs to get the tax mans house in order, because it has been left it to go to rack and ruin (look how vodafone got away with £Billions of tax).....then chase after or the shyster execs, politicians and celebs.
He employs an accountant and IFA to do all that for them....and its their job to make full LEGAL use of methods of investment and expendature to minimise a tax burden. If they says do this or that, Carr is likely to say, yeah go ahead!
If what the IFA/accountant does is illegal, thats another matter. They'll go down for it along with their client. Unless the account/IFA is a crook, in which case he'll skim off the money and bugger off to Barbados when the s**t hits the fan
.The Inland Revenue is in a current state of disarray...it has been for over ten years now as the elder more senior staff retire or leave to be replaced by their incompetant/apathetic understudies. A proprotion of whom don't even know the system they are supposed to be working with (of which we have to remind them of on occasions).
Their methodologies of catching people are a combination of a scatter gun technique, persistently harrassing/hounding anyone caught previously for a tax anomaly (no matter how minor, or if it was in error), and comming down like a ton of brick on anyone who makes a mistake on anything they pick up on (even on errors made by the IR).
So all in all..Cameron first needs to get the tax mans house in order, because it has been left it to go to rack and ruin (look how vodafone got away with £Billions of tax).....then chase after or the shyster execs, politicians and celebs.
Last edited by ALi-B; 21 June 2012 at 11:22 AM.
21 June 2012, 11:31 AM
#5
I am in total agreement with Ali.
The idiots chase the little man around for being late with a tax form, then "fine" you £100, then rescind it later and pay you the £75 THEY owed YOU.
They would be better not chasing the little man and going after the likes of Vodaphone.....
The idiots chase the little man around for being late with a tax form, then "fine" you £100, then rescind it later and pay you the £75 THEY owed YOU.
They would be better not chasing the little man and going after the likes of Vodaphone.....
21 June 2012, 11:41 AM
#6
Morals, finance and politicians don't mix.
Remember John Major- "back to basics" mantra and the scandal that followed it, all the while he was banging Edwina's eggs.
Cameron now saying its immoral that Jimmy Carr should use a perfectly legal avoidance method to reduce his tax, whilst Cameron's own father made his fortune and passed down a significant sum to him after his death, from offshore tax havens.
POT, KETTLE, BLACK.
If its legal, then good on anyone who has the income to use these tax vehicles to reduce their liabilities. I would rather keep my my money and spend it where I choose than give it to any government for them to waste it.
Remember John Major- "back to basics" mantra and the scandal that followed it, all the while he was banging Edwina's eggs.
Cameron now saying its immoral that Jimmy Carr should use a perfectly legal avoidance method to reduce his tax, whilst Cameron's own father made his fortune and passed down a significant sum to him after his death, from offshore tax havens.
POT, KETTLE, BLACK.
If its legal, then good on anyone who has the income to use these tax vehicles to reduce their liabilities. I would rather keep my my money and spend it where I choose than give it to any government for them to waste it.
Trending Topics
21 June 2012, 03:45 PM
#9
But thats the Crux...Jimmy Carr has paid the correct amount of tax.
Cameron's attack is nothing but a moral and hypocritical one, and I bet at no point in his working day he isn't within spitting distance of someone who is doing the exact same thing with their own finances.
21 June 2012, 03:48 PM
#10
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bring back infractions!
Posts: 4,554
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I've pointed out I also avoid paying tax where possible by legal means but to a much lesser extent than these high earners. It's called working the system to your advantage.
21 June 2012, 04:44 PM
#11
The Duke of Westminster 1936
"Every man is entitled, if he can, to order his affairs so that the tax attaching under the appropriate Acts is less than it otherwise would be". In doing so he reinforced the 1929 ruling of Lord Clyde in the case Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services & Ritchie v CIR ((1929) 14 TC 754) in which he said "No man in this country is under the smallest obligation, moral or other, so to arrange his legal relations to his business or to his property as to enable the Inland Revenue to put the largest possible shovel into his stores. The Inland Revenue is not slow - and quite rightly - to take every advantage which is open to it under the taxing statutes for the purpose of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is, in like manner, entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the revenue.
"Every man is entitled, if he can, to order his affairs so that the tax attaching under the appropriate Acts is less than it otherwise would be". In doing so he reinforced the 1929 ruling of Lord Clyde in the case Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services & Ritchie v CIR ((1929) 14 TC 754) in which he said "No man in this country is under the smallest obligation, moral or other, so to arrange his legal relations to his business or to his property as to enable the Inland Revenue to put the largest possible shovel into his stores. The Inland Revenue is not slow - and quite rightly - to take every advantage which is open to it under the taxing statutes for the purpose of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is, in like manner, entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the revenue.
21 June 2012, 04:50 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But thats the Crux...Jimmy Carr has paid the correct amount of tax.
Well that's fine then.
Cameron's attack is nothing but a moral and hypocritical one, and I bet at no point in his working day he isn't within spitting distance of someone who is doing the exact same thing with their own finances.
Well that's fine then.
Cameron's attack is nothing but a moral and hypocritical one, and I bet at no point in his working day he isn't within spitting distance of someone who is doing the exact same thing with their own finances.
21 June 2012, 04:58 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So avoiding paying some of it by legal means is okay then? The loop hole wouldn't be there if it weren't to be used
As I've pointed out I also avoid paying tax where possible by legal means but to a much lesser extent than these high earners. It's called working the system to your advantage.
As I've pointed out I also avoid paying tax where possible by legal means but to a much lesser extent than these high earners. It's called working the system to your advantage.
21 June 2012, 05:00 PM
#15
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Somewhere in Kent, sniffing some V-Power
Posts: 15,029
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What he/his accountant did was legal. End of.
With tax, morals don't come into it.
David Cameron has gone down even further in my estimation for singling Jimmy out on this one.
Quite shocking, especially when I guarantee that many of his parties sponsors, will also be exploiting the same loop hole.
With tax, morals don't come into it.
David Cameron has gone down even further in my estimation for singling Jimmy out on this one.
Quite shocking, especially when I guarantee that many of his parties sponsors, will also be exploiting the same loop hole.
21 June 2012, 05:27 PM
#17
Scooby Regular
seems to be a lot of woolly thinking going on on this forum
what’s the basic principle here?
To exploit a legal loophole to avoid tax = OK
To exploit a legal loophole to avoid extradition/conviction/eviction etc etc = bad
I see a lot of condemnation of the later on these pages, seems an inconsistence application of principles
Greece shows what happens when you have an ingrained culture of aggressive Tax avoidance
what’s the basic principle here?
To exploit a legal loophole to avoid tax = OK
To exploit a legal loophole to avoid extradition/conviction/eviction etc etc = bad
I see a lot of condemnation of the later on these pages, seems an inconsistence application of principles
Greece shows what happens when you have an ingrained culture of aggressive Tax avoidance
21 June 2012, 05:28 PM
#18
What he/his accountant did was legal. End of.
With tax, morals don't come into it.
David Cameron has gone down even further in my estimation for singling Jimmy out on this one.
Quite shocking, especially when I guarantee that many of his parties sponsors, will also be exploiting the same loop hole.
With tax, morals don't come into it.
David Cameron has gone down even further in my estimation for singling Jimmy out on this one.
Quite shocking, especially when I guarantee that many of his parties sponsors, will also be exploiting the same loop hole.
21 June 2012, 05:44 PM
#19
seems to be a lot of woolly thinking going on on this forum
what’s the basic principle here?
To exploit a legal loophole to avoid tax = OK
To exploit a legal loophole to avoid extradition/conviction/eviction etc etc = bad
I see a lot of condemnation of the later on these pages, seems an inconsistence application of principles
Greece shows what happens when you have an ingrained culture of aggressive Tax avoidance
what’s the basic principle here?
To exploit a legal loophole to avoid tax = OK
To exploit a legal loophole to avoid extradition/conviction/eviction etc etc = bad
I see a lot of condemnation of the later on these pages, seems an inconsistence application of principles
Greece shows what happens when you have an ingrained culture of aggressive Tax avoidance
you were mixing illegal with legal
21 June 2012, 05:48 PM
#20
I hope for his own sake cameron's own house is in order because i'm sure there are now thousands of journo's and opposition politicians taking a very close look at his financial affairs, let alone what jimmy car will be putting in his next stage show.
He has so shot himself in the foot, people in glass houses and all that..
He has so shot himself in the foot, people in glass houses and all that..
21 June 2012, 05:55 PM
#21
I am in total agreement with Ali.
The idiots chase the little man around for being late with a tax form, then "fine" you £100, then rescind it later and pay you the £75 THEY owed YOU.
They would be better not chasing the little man and going after the likes of Vodaphone.....
The idiots chase the little man around for being late with a tax form, then "fine" you £100, then rescind it later and pay you the £75 THEY owed YOU.
They would be better not chasing the little man and going after the likes of Vodaphone.....
21 June 2012, 10:02 PM
#26
no because if the truth was to come out you will probably find mp's are shareholders in such companies as vodaphone, if you wanted to line your back pocket as a shareholder what better way is there than to allow said companies to register offshore etc, let them avoid tax therefore more profitable and more shareholder dividend as a result, it's not rocket science is it, they have been doing it for years , the expences fiddles whre just a drop in the ocean
The avenue in which Cmeron is walking down could very well land him with some serious egg on his face. Becuase if he thinks the likes of Carr are corrupt enough to be singled out, then how can you NOT single out those who have evaded far more than he has, be it legal or not.
The irony is, I bet you Murdoch knows of those people as well!!
Last edited by ALi-B; 21 June 2012 at 10:05 PM.
21 June 2012, 10:20 PM
#27
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Cameron has refused to comment on the tax affairs of the singer Gary Barlow, a Conservative supporter. "
And there it is, the last 2 words of that sentence explains that reason then
"Downing Street has suggested it is preparing to abandon plans for David Cameron and senior ministers to disclose their tax returns, amid allegations of hypocrisy over the prime minister's decision to comment on Jimmy Carr's tax affairs."
And there it is, the last 2 words of that sentence explains that reason then
"Downing Street has suggested it is preparing to abandon plans for David Cameron and senior ministers to disclose their tax returns, amid allegations of hypocrisy over the prime minister's decision to comment on Jimmy Carr's tax affairs."
21 June 2012, 10:21 PM
#28
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pottering around ...
Posts: 3,573
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
21 June 2012, 10:36 PM
#29
Scooby Regular
David Cameron will live to regret those comments about Carr. Too many people very close to him will have done very similar things.
It is not for senior politicians to moralise about things like this. It is a matter of law, either it is illegal or it is not. If it isn't then everybody has to stfu or change the law.
It is not for senior politicians to moralise about things like this. It is a matter of law, either it is illegal or it is not. If it isn't then everybody has to stfu or change the law.
22 June 2012, 05:35 AM
#30
Scooby Regular
David Cameron will live to regret those comments about Carr. Too many people very close to him will have done very similar things.
It is not for senior politicians to moralise about things like this. It is a matter of law, either it is illegal or it is not. If it isn't then everybody has to stfu or change the law.
It is not for senior politicians to moralise about things like this. It is a matter of law, either it is illegal or it is not. If it isn't then everybody has to stfu or change the law.