tony de wonderful

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...sion-pots.html

You can see why they are striking.

Average GP pay is 120k as well.

steve05wrx

Shocking distortion of facts by the newspapers!
Doctors study and train for years before they can earn a decent salary.
Stress levels are high and they constantly take life or death decisions on a daily basis.
One small mistake and they and their trust are sued!!!
Hospital doctors are worth every penny!
Gps are a mixed bunch and my opinion of them is a bit more varied!

Interesting to see how this week pans out!
Cheers
steve

tony de wonderful

If there are Doctors who simply won't do the job because they are being asked to take a small cut in pay/pensions perhaps it is best that they leave the profession, they obviously have very little dedication or professional integrity?

danos14

iTrader: (8)

not surprising the country is skint...

my heart bleeds for them, yes along time to train but thats like alot of professions.

hodgy0_2

not surprising this country is skint with people posting drivel

if you want the benefits of being a doctor (which are no more really than any other profession), become a doctor – it really is that simple

If you don’t , or more likely can’t because you lack the drive, intelligence, application, commitment, patience etc etc

Then STFU

Cammy5106

iTrader: (3)

I think the amount of folk they save and help warants the cash do you not ?

My issue is the Nurses and so on that get payed so little that do the same job.

legacy_gtb

iTrader: (3)

My father in law is a doctor in a hospital, and i have friends that are nurses ..... ultimate respect for what they do and anybody who says any different will definately change theyre tune when theyre in a position where they need them to be there!

As said, nurses dont get payed nearly enough for the ****e they have to do, and doctors get payed alot, but they deserve every penny!

Pisses me off that people can even dream of starting to slag them off for it.

tony de wonderful

By that logic hodgy any profession or trade can justify high pay.

All they can say is if you don't like us earning x then you are free to try and become one of us.

Perhaps like Bankers?

The thing is the taxpayer pays the wages of NHS Doctors. Does the taxpayer not have a say in this?

Dingdongler

Change the record TDW it's boring, tedious and inaccurate. The figures quoted are a distortion and govt spin. John and I have already explained at length what the real issues behind the industrial action are. But like that other troll psl you seem to get a hard on from posting drivel and ignoring the facts.


I'd stick to your Sociology degree mate and not worry about the real world of life and death. You might get depressed again and quit....

tony de wonderful

They are not being slagged off, they are being criticised for striking despite their very high pay.

tony de wonderful

What parts of the telegraph article are distortions exactly?

I'm sorry you keep seeing my posts as a personal attack BTW.

legacy_gtb

iTrader: (3)

Tony, the fact is that doctors and consultants work really feckin hard! and theyre work carrys a certain value, therefore some earn alot of money! Not because theyre greedy, but because theyre personal value is used as a buffer to stop them being overworked.

Doctors inevitably become consultants as they specialise in certain fields, so they're advice, findings and expertise is heavily called upon to back up clinical trials of new medicines and techniques etc. This is a completely seperate earning to what the NHS provides them with so dont think for a minute that the tax payer is solely lining theyre pockets.

At an early stage of theyre career, young doctors are worked to the bone, have really bizzarre shift patterns that change every week, and get payed relatively little considering how much theyve had to put into the 9 years plus of education theyve put in to get there! Its basically more of a way of life than a job ..... assuming your employed, can you put a price on how much youd want to give up your social patterns and hobbys and sink everything you have into your profession???? .... i very much doubt it!

The telegraph has blanketed doctors into one catagory, and doesnt see the difference between the doctors at the early stages of theyre career or the ones who are too bloody busy to develop theyre career, and the creme of the crop at the end of theyre career who are retiring after being very successful and fortunate enough to have earned alot of money from it.

"Some 35,000 medical staff are set to take industrial action over changes to their retirement schemes"

"More than 100 doctors and consultants retired with pension pots worth more than £3.5million last year"

Its a reporters job to take facts, filter them down and spin them into a way that gets easily influencable people tricked into thinking they have a valid point ..... the fact is this is two different storys merged into one, and youve fallen hook line and sinker!

35000 people striking, 100 doctors ..... thats 0.3% of the sample size .... fukc the telegraph for trynig to tarnish the point of these strike actions! And if you still think youve got a point, fukc you too!

tony de wonderful

It's not about the 'moral value' of what Doctors do but their pay.

I do agree the job demands a lot but so do many jobs. Only someone who has never seen life outside of the medical profession will think hard work, long hours etc are exceptional to the world of Doctors.

One oilfield service company I used to work for had new recruits doing 300 days plus offshore every year. No guaranteed pension or job though. Needless to say most burned out.

hodgy0_2

what part of a market economy don't you understand?

anyway, the principle of my post is bigger than just market economics

as I have posted time and time again -- if people would only concentrate on themselves and their own advancement in life, and stopped whining and whinging about what other people have or have not, do or don’t do

then the country would be a far better place

whingers always seem to have a lot to whinge about!!!!

Geezer

But doctors and nurses are taxpayers too, what's your point?

It's like saying I should have a say in Tesco executive pay because I spend alot of money there. The fact I can go to another supermarket is irrelevant, I have to spend my grocery money somewhere, but I have no say on how any supermarket will spend it.

Good luck to 'em, I wouldn't want to be a doctor. Even GPs who are seen as having cushy jobs, imagine a life where every 10-15 mins someone new comes in and basically moans at you, not to mention the fact you will pick up more illnesses than in other jobs.

How bleedin depressing is that? It's well paid for a reason.

Geezer

Dingdongler

I don't see your posts as a personal attack. But your posts on this subject just seem to be a mix of unrepresentative/inaccurate statistics and pseudo philosophical and free market jibber jabber.

None of this nonsense is a true reflection of what is going on at the moment. That is the issue I have with your posts on the subject.

If the facts are put forward accurately you'll find most people side with the doctors. You seem to have major issues with what doctors are paid but most people especially those that have had the experience of putting their life in a docs hands don't.

And I'm not interested in your attempts to call my profession conceited, masochistic or compare us to bankers. All this just shows a life spent on the internet with no real life experience of the subject you attempt to debate.

As I've said before you have an opinion on everything and could talk for England but what is your real life contribution?

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Just as a small aside, it really doesn't pay to do a lot of clinical work as an NHS consultant. I look after half a million people and I do an awful lot of "hands on" stuff as there is only me and no other staff.

The big money is to be earned doing comittee work, If I could get on my national training committe then that's a Bronze Merit award status.. lets see, a bronze award is currently an extra £35 400 a year in 2010.... and pensionable.

I would guess the 100 doctors mentioned are mainly "committee men"..

Shaun

zip106

Oooo.... this is a very good post.

A*

tony de wonderful

A market is where the only things of interest are price, supply, and demand, NOT justificationism....or collective bargaining or action as the latter distorts markets.

In a free market Doctors would leave if they were not being paid enough and there would be nothing to discuss except that. The 'market price' would be the same as a 'just price' and this would be the price it took to fill Doctor positions and not a pound more.

tony de wonderful

Most people don't side with the Doctors though Dingdongler. This poll puts public antipathy at 60%.

tony de wonderful

The Tesco executive doesn't work for the public via the state, that is a faulty analogy. We are just customers of Tesco and have no right to have a say on how Tesco pays its staff, if otoh Tesco was a nationalised company would you not admit that the taxpayer has a right to value for money or should Tesco staff have not be accountable to the taxpayer regarding the salaries they command? Perhaps just give them blank cheques?

Yes Doctors and Nurses are taxpayers but they only constitute a small percentage of taxpayers.

steve05wrx

Tony , I just looked at the yougov poll results and can see one glaring problem - when asked whether people think doctors are well paid - the person being asked the question is not actually told what a doctors salary is.
This means that most peoples perception of doctors salaries will have come from newspaper sensalionist figures - rather than true average figures.
Salaried GPs can only dream of six figure salaries. GP practice partners are self employed business people - clever, hard working ones can earn good money.
Hospital doctors, again only achieve really high salaries once they become consultants and even then not all specialties can get private patients (e.g. A&E).
The newspapers are distorting the facts ( as usual) to sway public opinion!
Cheers
steve

ScoobyWon't

I pointed out the same in regards to police officers, but he ignored that. But that's most likely due to his dislike of the police who caught him speeding.

Leslie

I really dont think I would enjoy having to do intimate examinations to all and sundry, some of them must be pretty awful to have to do.

I reckon they are worth the money.

Les

tony de wonderful

I didn't ignore it. I replied here that they only constitute a small proportion of taxpayers, there is no reason why their sectional interest as a minority should overrule the wishes of the majority of taxpayers.

Dingdongler

I said IF the accurate facts were made available to them. Just look at the response on this thread. How many people (me excepted as I have a vested interest) agree with you? Virtually none. The only ones who will are those that might believe the nonsense in the papers.

We have GPs and consultants on this forum. We have all told you that we do NOT earn the figures flaunted in the papers. JBanks has told you in no uncertain terms that he DOES not earn £120k+ per year.

We have all told you that NONE of us will retire on anywhere near this nonsense £68k year figure. Yet you still persevere with your nonsense. You ignore the facts from those who are at the coal face, I don't understand why you do this.

You prefer mentally m8sturbating over a fantasy rather than dealing with the facts.

Perhaps its this issue you have with reality that has caused you to quit your job due to occupational depression and go and study Sociology. Detaching yourself from reality and sitting in a class room endlessly discussing things will suit you down to the ground.

tony de wonderful

The BMA have had airtime to make their case, I have seen them doing it myself.

It's all a media conspiracy though?

It's not like anyone else has had to take pay cuts the last few years of course? It's not like the private sector had a renormalisation of pension terms a few years ago?

Please stop mocking mental illness btw, you are supposed to be a Doctor.

Dingdongler

So do you have a mental illness?

tony de wonderful

Are you sure you are a Doctor?

ScoobyDoo555

I think is where the debate lies though - how "we" value different jobs.

Yes, you're example of oilfield workers is valid, BUT are you valuing the work of a technician (albeit probably highly qualified) over that of someone in a life-saving position?

This is ALL about how the public's perception of job-roles and responsibilities has changed over the years.

I personally think they are worth every penny, as are the "supporting" staff, such as the Nurses etc.
But then I also think teachers and educators are worth their pay....... but I'm not allowed to think that on this site, as they are generally regarded as scum: one run-on-the-ladder below benefit-cheats.