Did your central heating break down in the big freeze? Here's why...
29 December 2010, 03:54 PM
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Did your central heating break down in the big freeze? Here's why...
Interesting article in the Daily Mail today, which confirms my thoughts about yet another of the green cons that we are being fed 
It is not so much the freezing "overflow" that i am worried about, but...
Any of our resident plumbers like to comment??
mb
It is not so much the freezing "overflow" that i am worried about, but...
Originally Posted by Waily Wail
For an average home, replacing even a very inefficient old model with the best new boiler on the market will, at most, save a couple of hundred pounds a year in gas bills.
That sounds good until you realise that at £2,000 for one of the better condensing models, a new one will take at least ten years to pay for itself.
And the problem is that these boilers simply do not last anything like ten years.
‘You might get 20 years out of one of the old ones,’ Charlie Mullins says, ‘but it is more like three to six years out of one of these new ones. In fact, if it goes wrong after four years, you are better off replacing a condensing boiler altogether because of the *horrendous cost of the parts.
‘On the basis of efficiency, they certainly do not pay for themselves. It makes no sense to take out a working old boiler and replace it with a condensing one.’
That sounds good until you realise that at £2,000 for one of the better condensing models, a new one will take at least ten years to pay for itself.
And the problem is that these boilers simply do not last anything like ten years.
‘You might get 20 years out of one of the old ones,’ Charlie Mullins says, ‘but it is more like three to six years out of one of these new ones. In fact, if it goes wrong after four years, you are better off replacing a condensing boiler altogether because of the *horrendous cost of the parts.
‘On the basis of efficiency, they certainly do not pay for themselves. It makes no sense to take out a working old boiler and replace it with a condensing one.’
mb
29 December 2010, 04:32 PM
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I was about to say the same thing. £2000 for a domestic boiler?? I had one fitted last year and it was a very good Worc Bosch one. My house is a 5 bed 3 baths (actually 1 bath + 2 shower rooms) and 20 rads, it cost £900 (exc fitting)
So where has £2000 come from?
On the whole though I agree though that things aren't built to last anymore. The Panel on my Panasonic plasma has developed a fault after three years, not too bothered as I have a 5 year warranty. However my CRT TVs from yesteryear lasted over 15 years.
So where has £2000 come from?
On the whole though I agree though that things aren't built to last anymore. The Panel on my Panasonic plasma has developed a fault after three years, not too bothered as I have a 5 year warranty. However my CRT TVs from yesteryear lasted over 15 years.
Last edited by Dingdongler; 29 December 2010 at 04:33 PM.
29 December 2010, 04:34 PM
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I was about to say the same thing. £2000 for a domestic boiler?? I had one fitted last year and it was a very good Worc Bosch one. My house is a 5 bed 3 baths (actually 1 bath + 2 shower rooms) and it cost £900 (exc fitting)
So where has £2000 come from?
On the whole though I agree though that things aren't built to last anymore. The Panel on my Panasonic plasma has developed a fault after three years, not too bothered as I have a 5 year warranty. However my CRT TVs from yesteryear lasted over 15 years.
So where has £2000 come from?
On the whole though I agree though that things aren't built to last anymore. The Panel on my Panasonic plasma has developed a fault after three years, not too bothered as I have a 5 year warranty. However my CRT TVs from yesteryear lasted over 15 years.
29 December 2010, 04:43 PM
#7
Well my dad's old house was on its THIRD condensing boiler in a fifteen year period! So that article is about right. All British built boilers too.
The problem is early-ish condensing boilers were of absolutely rubbish quality. And more modern ones have such complex electronic control systems that there is ALOT more silly things to go wrong.
The worst was the Glow-worm which barely lasted a pitiful 4 years before rusting itself in to oblivion and was nothing but trouble since the day the warranty expired. Despite a fully paid maintenance, service and repair contract with Homeserve and Heatcall they were useless and only served to make the boiler's lifespan even shorter. I will never touch a Glow-worm nor Vailant boiler - ever (Vailant own Glow-worm).
The best condensing boiler was the original Ideal Stelrad Turbo II - which soldiered on for well over ten year without being serviced once until it eventually died by blowing acid condensate steam out the side due to it eating away the side of the boiler's casing (a plastic syphon tube broke causing condensate to overflow and boil). No plumber at the time understood how the boiler worked because condensing boilers were still new fangled, plus its layout was upside to down compared to normal boilers as it had a downward firing burner, so whilst I understood how it worked, a Corgi plumber couldn't
Because they didn't know how to repair it, it had to be replaced.
The last (current) one is a Worcester Bosch - on its THIRD circuit board in a two year period (design fault) and afterwards started throwing up random "EA" flame detect errors, where the Worcs-Bosch technician can't find the root cause (plugs in his Panasonic tough book, and scratches his head). It also backfired on the odd occasion, blowing off the plastic test probe cover on the inlet section of the flue, again technician could not replicate the fault.
Whilst in contrast, our house has a Worcs Bosch conventional combi boiler...last of the breed too so it has a fully self-modulating (efficient) burner and fitted in 1995 IIRC. Rated at 78.9% efficiency, and no worries about acidic condensate eating it away or any overly complex electronics/sensor/safety interlocks to go wrong. Its now over 15 years old and all its had spent on it was a new pressure relief valve (£20 ). Take the cover off on the burner for inspection (shhh
) and it still looks brand new inside, no corrosion, no soot, perfect. A modern condensing boiler in contrast has very little access for proper inspection of the burner or heat exchanger for service/cleaning without a full strip down of the boiler.
The other thing to remember gas saving is "upto" 10%...and that is based on the return water temperature staying below 55degrees...if the heating system is incorrectly sized (radiators too small), or badly adjusted (at a guess that's ALOT of UK homes), a condensing boiler would be barely be any more efficient in these cases. This is however more of an issue with the idiotic plumbers that install them who either haven't a clue or just don't give a s**t. So the article is pretty bang on as I've been harping on about the very same issues of the "condensing boiler con" for years (not bad for the Daily Fail
).
The problem is early-ish condensing boilers were of absolutely rubbish quality. And more modern ones have such complex electronic control systems that there is ALOT more silly things to go wrong.
The worst was the Glow-worm which barely lasted a pitiful 4 years before rusting itself in to oblivion and was nothing but trouble since the day the warranty expired. Despite a fully paid maintenance, service and repair contract with Homeserve and Heatcall they were useless and only served to make the boiler's lifespan even shorter. I will never touch a Glow-worm nor Vailant boiler - ever (Vailant own Glow-worm).
The best condensing boiler was the original Ideal Stelrad Turbo II - which soldiered on for well over ten year without being serviced once until it eventually died by blowing acid condensate steam out the side due to it eating away the side of the boiler's casing (a plastic syphon tube broke causing condensate to overflow and boil). No plumber at the time understood how the boiler worked because condensing boilers were still new fangled, plus its layout was upside to down compared to normal boilers as it had a downward firing burner, so whilst I understood how it worked, a Corgi plumber couldn't
Because they didn't know how to repair it, it had to be replaced.The last (current) one is a Worcester Bosch - on its THIRD circuit board in a two year period (design fault) and afterwards started throwing up random "EA" flame detect errors, where the Worcs-Bosch technician can't find the root cause (plugs in his Panasonic tough book, and scratches his head). It also backfired on the odd occasion, blowing off the plastic test probe cover on the inlet section of the flue, again technician could not replicate the fault.
Whilst in contrast, our house has a Worcs Bosch conventional combi boiler...last of the breed too so it has a fully self-modulating (efficient) burner and fitted in 1995 IIRC. Rated at 78.9% efficiency, and no worries about acidic condensate eating it away or any overly complex electronics/sensor/safety interlocks to go wrong. Its now over 15 years old and all its had spent on it was a new pressure relief valve (£20 ). Take the cover off on the burner for inspection (shhh
) and it still looks brand new inside, no corrosion, no soot, perfect. A modern condensing boiler in contrast has very little access for proper inspection of the burner or heat exchanger for service/cleaning without a full strip down of the boiler. The other thing to remember gas saving is "upto" 10%...and that is based on the return water temperature staying below 55degrees...if the heating system is incorrectly sized (radiators too small), or badly adjusted (at a guess that's ALOT of UK homes), a condensing boiler would be barely be any more efficient in these cases. This is however more of an issue with the idiotic plumbers that install them who either haven't a clue or just don't give a s**t. So the article is pretty bang on as I've been harping on about the very same issues of the "condensing boiler con" for years (not bad for the Daily Fail
).
Last edited by ALi-B; 29 December 2010 at 05:45 PM. Reason: spell check :D
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29 December 2010, 04:47 PM
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29 December 2010, 04:51 PM
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Well my dad's old house was on its THIRD condensing boiler in a fifteen year period! So that article is about right. All British built boilers too.
The problem is early-ish condensing boilers were of absolutely rubbish quality. And more modern ones have such complex electronic control systems that there is ALOT more silly things to go wrong.
The worst was the Glow-wormwhich lasted a pityful 4 years before rutsing itself in to oblivion. Desite a fully paid maintanence and service and repair contract with Homeserve and Heatcall. I will never touch a glow-worm nor Vailant boiler - ever (Vailant own Glow-worm).
Best was the original Ideal Stelrad Turbo II - which solidered on for over ten year without being serviced once until it eventually died by blowing acid condesate steam out the side which ate away the side of the boiler's casing (syphon tube broke causing condesate to overflow and boil) no Plumber at the time understood how the boiler worked beacuse condensing boilers were still new fangled, (plus its layout was upside to down to normal boilers as it has a downward fireing burner) so they couldn't repair it. Hence it being replaced.
The last one is a Worcester Bosch - on its THIRD circuit board in a two year period (design fault) and afterwards started throwing up random "EA" flame detect errors, where the Worcs-Bosch technician can't find the root cause (plugs in his Panasonic toughbook, and scratches his head). It also backfired on the odd occaion when it lights up - blowing off the plastic test probe cover on the inlet section of the flue. Again technician could not replicate the fault.
Whilst our house has a conventional combi boiler...last of the breed too so it has a fully self-modulating burner and fitted in 1995 IIRC. Rated at 86% efficiency, and no worries about acidic condensate eating it away or complex electronics to go wrong. Its now over 15 years old and all its had spent on it was a new pressure relief valve (£20 ). Take the cover off on the burner for inspection and it still looks brand new inside, no corrosion, no soot, perfect. A modern consensing boiler in constrast has very little access for proper inspection of the burner or heat exchanger for service/cleaning without a full strip down of the boiler. Even its crappy predacessor a French ELM Leblanc which despite being a pain in teh ****, was cheap to fix and outlasted every condensing boiler at my dad's place. The 'Leblanc's demise was it heat exchanger burst, possibly due to a previous overheat sitaution when both the pump and overheat thermostat failed, it was pretty old though (20years old at a guess)
The other thing to remember gas saving is "upto" 10%...and that is based on the return water tenperature staying below 55degrees...if the heating system is incorrectedly sized (radiators too small), or badly adjusted (at a guess that's ALOT of UK homes), a condensing boiler would be barely be any more efficient in these cases.
The problem is early-ish condensing boilers were of absolutely rubbish quality. And more modern ones have such complex electronic control systems that there is ALOT more silly things to go wrong.
The worst was the Glow-wormwhich lasted a pityful 4 years before rutsing itself in to oblivion. Desite a fully paid maintanence and service and repair contract with Homeserve and Heatcall. I will never touch a glow-worm nor Vailant boiler - ever (Vailant own Glow-worm).
Best was the original Ideal Stelrad Turbo II - which solidered on for over ten year without being serviced once until it eventually died by blowing acid condesate steam out the side which ate away the side of the boiler's casing (syphon tube broke causing condesate to overflow and boil) no Plumber at the time understood how the boiler worked beacuse condensing boilers were still new fangled, (plus its layout was upside to down to normal boilers as it has a downward fireing burner) so they couldn't repair it. Hence it being replaced.
The last one is a Worcester Bosch - on its THIRD circuit board in a two year period (design fault) and afterwards started throwing up random "EA" flame detect errors, where the Worcs-Bosch technician can't find the root cause (plugs in his Panasonic toughbook, and scratches his head). It also backfired on the odd occaion when it lights up - blowing off the plastic test probe cover on the inlet section of the flue. Again technician could not replicate the fault.
Whilst our house has a conventional combi boiler...last of the breed too so it has a fully self-modulating burner and fitted in 1995 IIRC. Rated at 86% efficiency, and no worries about acidic condensate eating it away or complex electronics to go wrong. Its now over 15 years old and all its had spent on it was a new pressure relief valve (£20 ). Take the cover off on the burner for inspection and it still looks brand new inside, no corrosion, no soot, perfect. A modern consensing boiler in constrast has very little access for proper inspection of the burner or heat exchanger for service/cleaning without a full strip down of the boiler. Even its crappy predacessor a French ELM Leblanc which despite being a pain in teh ****, was cheap to fix and outlasted every condensing boiler at my dad's place. The 'Leblanc's demise was it heat exchanger burst, possibly due to a previous overheat sitaution when both the pump and overheat thermostat failed, it was pretty old though (20years old at a guess)
The other thing to remember gas saving is "upto" 10%...and that is based on the return water tenperature staying below 55degrees...if the heating system is incorrectedly sized (radiators too small), or badly adjusted (at a guess that's ALOT of UK homes), a condensing boiler would be barely be any more efficient in these cases.
Agreed on the glow worm. You may remember mine failed last year Ali and left me and the family freezing over xmas with no hot water or heating for 2 weeks. I'll never forget how miserable it was and will never take a warm house for granted again.
I also remember that you Ali and a few other members on here were very helpful in trying to help me figure out the problem
29 December 2010, 04:54 PM
#10
I'm not a plumber, but I know from speaking to several people with condensing boilers that they have a tendency to shut themselves off in very cold weather if the condenser pipe isn't lagged properly. Stick a good piece of foam pipe-cover around it and that's at least one problem you should be able to avoid.
29 December 2010, 05:13 PM
#11
In other news: "The Power flushing con"
The lazy plumber's dream in making the consumer think it will fix their sludged up heating system.
My mate just had to have British Gas remove every radiator and have them hand flushed in the back garden. Regardless of it being power flushed when his boiler was replaced (about 5 years ago), it being power flushed again earlier this year, and powerflushed AGAIN for a final time just before christmas, before the Grittish Bass "engineer" realised that the proper way to fix it was to do it the old fashioned way...take off the rads and get out the hose pipe. Credit due, at least the last "engineer" didn't fob him off like the others did.
The lazy plumber's dream in making the consumer think it will fix their sludged up heating system.
My mate just had to have British Gas remove every radiator and have them hand flushed in the back garden. Regardless of it being power flushed when his boiler was replaced (about 5 years ago), it being power flushed again earlier this year, and powerflushed AGAIN for a final time just before christmas, before the Grittish Bass "engineer" realised that the proper way to fix it was to do it the old fashioned way...take off the rads and get out the hose pipe.
Credit due, at least the last "engineer" didn't fob him off like the others did.
29 December 2010, 05:27 PM
#13
I have a Potterton boiler, been in for the last 10 years, had 3x PCB boards (design fault, they last about 2 yrs a go!).
Mother-in-Law has a 29yr old Oil fired boiler, been fine up until 9am xmas day where it decided to no longer spark. After taking the thing apart for basic checks turns out that a £7/pr electrodes was all that was required. Boiler is on its way out but 30yr return...not bad!
Mother-in-Law has a 29yr old Oil fired boiler, been fine up until 9am xmas day where it decided to no longer spark. After taking the thing apart for basic checks turns out that a £7/pr electrodes was all that was required. Boiler is on its way out but 30yr return...not bad!
29 December 2010, 05:30 PM
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There is another advantage of an old system over these condensing types. You have a hot water tank and if your boiler does fail, you have an emmersion heater.
A lass at work has found that out 4 times in the last 18 months, relying on her neighbours for showers.
A lass at work has found that out 4 times in the last 18 months, relying on her neighbours for showers.
29 December 2010, 05:36 PM
#15
Agreed on the glow worm. You may remember mine failed last year Ali and left me and the family freezing over xmas with no hot water or heating for 2 weeks. I'll never forget how miserable it was and will never take a warm house for granted again.
I also remember that you Ali and a few other members on here were very helpful in trying to help me figure out the problem
I also remember that you Ali and a few other members on here were very helpful in trying to help me figure out the problem
How we were treated by Gloworm Homeserve and Heatcall in consideration that it was £1K boiler (supply price), and had a fully paid repair/service contract from day one of it being installed. Only to be fobbed off by incompetent plumbers and finally having the contract terminated with the "not economical to repair" get-out clause.
Utter nightmare that I would not wish on anybody; And if the boiler was reliable in the first place we wouldn't have to endure the wrath of Homeserve's incompetence and consistent use of outside sub-contractors totally unfamiliar with the boiler in question. No to mention their inability to resolve or properly acknowledge any complaints.
Don't know if I mentioned my cousin's Glow-worm boiler met the same fate too.
Last edited by ALi-B; 29 December 2010 at 05:40 PM.
29 December 2010, 06:09 PM
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...well British Gas say that a new boiler can be "fully installed from just £1,900", with the "from" suggesting that they are probably a lot more
And chucking in a year's "free" HomeCare might give you the impression that a brand new boiler is likely to fail within twelve months!!
mb
And chucking in a year's "free" HomeCare might give you the impression that a brand new boiler is likely to fail within twelve months!!
mb
29 December 2010, 06:15 PM
#17
Could be "London" prices....20% surcharge for being Sarf of da Rivva.
Seriously quotes would depend on if it includes new pipe, rads, TRVs, tank (if conventional/heat store etc.), labour, "powerflush" of existing system etc.
The boiler itself is often over £1K. and that also varies quite alot depedning on if you pay the full RRP or trade prices.
Seriously quotes would depend on if it includes new pipe, rads, TRVs, tank (if conventional/heat store etc.), labour, "powerflush" of existing system etc.
The boiler itself is often over £1K. and that also varies quite alot depedning on if you pay the full RRP or trade prices.
29 December 2010, 06:19 PM
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In other news: "The Power flushing con"
The lazy plumber's dream in making the consumer think it will fix their sludged up heating system.
My mate just had to have British Gas remove every radiator and have them hand flushed in the back garden. Regardless of it being power flushed when his boiler was replaced (about 5 years ago), it being power flushed again earlier this year, and powerflushed AGAIN for a final time just before christmas, before the Grittish Bass "engineer" realised that the proper way to fix it was to do it the old fashioned way...take off the rads and get out the hose pipe. Credit due, at least the last "engineer" didn't fob him off like the others did.
The lazy plumber's dream in making the consumer think it will fix their sludged up heating system.
My mate just had to have British Gas remove every radiator and have them hand flushed in the back garden. Regardless of it being power flushed when his boiler was replaced (about 5 years ago), it being power flushed again earlier this year, and powerflushed AGAIN for a final time just before christmas, before the Grittish Bass "engineer" realised that the proper way to fix it was to do it the old fashioned way...take off the rads and get out the hose pipe.
Credit due, at least the last "engineer" didn't fob him off like the others did.and the way he has cleaned them what about all the **** in the pipes ?
Last edited by paulwrxboro; 29 December 2010 at 06:22 PM.
29 December 2010, 06:25 PM
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I had mine installed 3 years ago, no tank system and my next door neighbours had one fitted early last year all by the same plumber. All three froze up over Xmas. I cut the condensate pipe on mine and my neighbours and let them run into a bucket and these are both fully lagged. My dads froze once before Xmas and again Xmas morning, I spent an hour thawing the pipe.
Everybody I know who has had their condensate freeze has a Worcester Bosch boiler. I spoke to a plumber who works for the council, he said they had installed 50 new WB units before Christmas and they had all froze over Christmas.
29 December 2010, 06:27 PM
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...well British Gas say that a new boiler can be "fully installed from just £1,900", with the "from" suggesting that they are probably a lot more
And chucking in a year's "free" HomeCare might give you the impression that a brand new boiler is likely to fail within twelve months!!
mb
And chucking in a year's "free" HomeCare might give you the impression that a brand new boiler is likely to fail within twelve months!!
mb
29 December 2010, 06:30 PM
#21
I "think" I read somewhere in the Worcs-Bosch installer's manual that a condensate drain ran outside should run into a tundish to prevent this happening (or maybe that was run-off from the PRV). It definetly said something about how to prevent condensate from freezing (time for a google methinks).
The condensate drain on my dad's was all internal; running under the kitchen sink waste, so freezing should not be an issue.
The condensate drain on my dad's was all internal; running under the kitchen sink waste, so freezing should not be an issue.
Last edited by ALi-B; 29 December 2010 at 06:33 PM.
29 December 2010, 06:44 PM
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if they all ran inside there would be no problems but takes more time + more money and try telling a customer this in the middle of summer, guess what they are going to say
ALIB did you read post 18 ?
ALIB did you read post 18 ?
29 December 2010, 06:55 PM
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Me too, just had our board replaced along with the rest of the street.
Nik.
Nik.
I have a Potterton boiler, been in for the last 10 years, had 3x PCB boards (design fault, they last about 2 yrs a go!).
Mother-in-Law has a 29yr old Oil fired boiler, been fine up until 9am xmas day where it decided to no longer spark. After taking the thing apart for basic checks turns out that a £7/pr electrodes was all that was required. Boiler is on its way out but 30yr return...not bad!
Mother-in-Law has a 29yr old Oil fired boiler, been fine up until 9am xmas day where it decided to no longer spark. After taking the thing apart for basic checks turns out that a £7/pr electrodes was all that was required. Boiler is on its way out but 30yr return...not bad!
29 December 2010, 07:11 PM
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I "think" I read somewhere in the Worcs-Bosch installer's manual that a condensate drain ran outside should run into a tundish to prevent this happening (or maybe that was run-off from the PRV). It definetly said something about how to prevent condensate from freezing (time for a google methinks).
The condensate drain on my dad's was all internal; running under the kitchen sink waste, so freezing should not be an issue.
The condensate drain on my dad's was all internal; running under the kitchen sink waste, so freezing should not be an issue.
The condensate is supposed to store in a small plastic collection tank within the boiler housing and then release(siphon) as a small volume of water rather than drip, drip as they all tend to do. I think if they worked correctly they would less likely freeze. Mines done it every year since it was installed so I'm now looking at some heater elements in tape form that can be wrapped round the piping and switches on automatically at 5 degs.
I'm under the impression WB are worse for this as the boiler recuirculates the heat to give greater efficiency but a byproduct is more condensate water.
A guy up the road had a new boiler installed in his loft last year. The condensate comes out of the gable and into the upstairs rainwater gutter. I know for a fact that all our gutters and fall pipes were frozen solid and he didn't have any problems. This implies to me that whatever boiler he has, it doesn't discard any condensate water.
29 December 2010, 07:56 PM
#25
Maybe something in that. The tank empties a bit like a toilet, but its only a very small tank. Compared to the old Ideal Stelrad which held about a half a gallon of condensate and flushed it all out in one go.
I think the German version of Worcester Bosch is Junkers.....same boiler just a different badge. I wonder which bit is British (barring the badge?
)
I think the German version of Worcester Bosch is Junkers.....same boiler just a different badge. I wonder which bit is British (barring the badge?
)
29 December 2010, 09:07 PM
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29 December 2010, 09:28 PM
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29 December 2010, 09:58 PM
#29
AFAIK my friend is on a total home cover thing that he's had since the boiler was fitted (British Gas branded boiler). Rads are still the originals (1970's house) so you can guess how bad they are even after an initial power flush. To top it off it has what looks like a standard HW tank, I guess it doesn't condensate at all when heating the hot water!
I don't know what my friend paid, I'd hate to think. I'd love to point him a better direction than BG, but I can't even reccomend him a good plumber since of the two I know, one has retired and the other is a contract fitter and isn't interested in doing foreigners (too much hassle).
All I see power flushing would do with a heating system in such a bad state is clog up the valves at each end of each radiator...seeing thats usually the biggest restriction even when fully opened.
Certainly when I hand flushed the rads on our central heating, there were hard deposits blocking the lockshield valves for the return to the boiler, I can't see how powerflushing could remove such a blockage properly - even when reversing the flow - the deposits will just get stuck in the other valve instead.
Last edited by ALi-B; 29 December 2010 at 10:00 PM.
29 December 2010, 10:10 PM
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haveing one of these fitted might be a good place to start, its supriseing how much can be removed
http://www.amazon.co.uk/MagnaClean-P...3660391&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.co.uk/MagnaClean-P...3660391&sr=8-1