JTaylor

"An Islamic militant, anti-democratic movement, bearing a holistic vision of Islam whose final aim is the restoration of the caliphate".

Mehdi Mozaffari

or

"Support for Muslim identity, authenticity, broader regionalism, revivalism, and revitalization of the community".

Graham E Fuller

There are 1.3 billion Muslims living on the planet, 1.5 million of which live in the UK. What are Snet's hopes and fears for this country and the planet? Will global Jihad proliferate or dissipate and what part should The West play in influencing the outcome?

tony de wonderful

Not all Islamism advocates violence, you can have a transition to an Islamic state via gradualism.

Islamism is fairly obscurantist in itself as well, always being difficult to pin down on actual manifestos.

What it seems to have in common is anti-capitalism, anti-secularism, anti-liberal, anti-democracy etc, advocating a totalitarian state where Islam is supreme.

It presents itself as a reinvigoration of Islam, the restoring of 'the Caliphate' etc....plays the politics of utopia, promises this and that, new order etc, new elites who are free of corruption (saints) who will rule for the benefit of the Islamic masses etc.

It's really very 20th century playing the popular politics of the hard left, only now the proletariatis replaced by Muslims. Same failed politics of the 20th century rebadged...won't work.

Also borrows a lot the romantic aspects of fascism....the idea of a 'fallen nation' etc, the nostalgia for former glories, promise of rebirth etc, you have the same victimhood narrative both historical and the present, note the same strong anti-semitism too.

what would scooby do

IDGAS

HTH

hodgy0_2

nice (the rest is b0llox though)

Torquemada

Yeah TDW. they're all akin to thems germans fellas

JTaylor

What's your view, Torquemada?

Torquemada

I suppose I have a fairly ironic forum handle, with all this religious hoo-haa.

Me? Personally I think the media and general ignorance from the masses have more of a part to play than any fundamentalist preaching or standard teachings when it comes to fear or blinkered devotion of Muslims/christians or any other faith. Obviously there are many that play on this ignorance to achive the devoteeism (sp?) etc. or radical hatred.

Personally it's my opinion that this current Islam is the new IRA focus will hang about for 10-20 years or so and either develop into a hysteria made sh1tstorm, or they'll find something else to rant and rave about.

As long as there are (what I believe to be daft) cultures (including our own) centred around religion and/or money then there will always be something to have a scrap about.
Or maybe I have the wrong end of the stick, would love to hear others views Without mentioning thems Deutsche peeps

Dingdongler

Thanks, but how does this all fit in with the Pakistani taxi driver who skanked you?

Torquemada

Trend emerging? Quality!

JTaylor

There are a growing number of commentators who observe similarities between the political ideologies of Islamism and Nazism; as such, and in the interests of a balanced discussion, I declare Godwin's Law suspended.

Torquemada

lol, fair play, I see you have noticed my avoidance of said subject, just in case

Certainly, some radical interpretations of Islam do seem to move towards the ideologies and views of the ****'s but that's the same with any subject that's twisted enough. Radicalism and fundamentalism based upon myth and hearsay is dangerous any which way.

This should be a good one

Martin2005

Well as someone already said, there are over a billion Muslims on earth, most of whom are just getting on with living their lives.

It's grossly unfair to try and characterise all these people as belonging to(even remotely), and sympathising with some sort of wider fascist political movement. THEY ARE JUST REGULAR FOLK LIKE YOU AND ME.

Sometimes we do the extremists job for them!

tony de wonderful

That's the point; Islamism is a 20th century political movement, it's the politics of the hard left in an Islamic favour. You have intellectuals like Sayyid Qutb behind it. Islamism is political Islam, not all Muslims subscribe to it of course.

tony de wonderful

I mentioned fascists, you are the one who invoked Godwin, not me.

Despite what you are saying the Islamist movements are very real. The largest of which is probably the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.

JTaylor

All political movements are operated by a tiny minority who use their influence to engineer change; I shan't insult you with the hundreds of examples that history offers up. I would, however, make a striking distinction between Muslims and say late 18th century American and French and early 20th century Russians, depression era Germany and Italy and so forth. The distinction is this: these foot soldiers elect are global, culturally unified, universaly schooled in the text of the one and only source and have submitted, utterly, to a supernatural entity. Just like you and me, you say. At 1.3billion strong, hypothetically speaking, a 10% participation rate following a call to mass Jihad inspired mobilisation would make Bastille and The Winter Palace look like WI protest.

Sensationalist? Slightly, but don't tell me that this is not real and that the people of Islam are strolling passively through time. Don't tell me that because you've seen Ishmael in Starbucks and had Ibrahim around for dinner that Islam's 'right on'. Islamism's rise over the last 20 years has been stratisferic.

Torquemada

Hey, I never mentioned the N word until JT said I could, pmsl.
Oh, here we go...

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

+1 - the media and stupidity are the biggrest issues here, not Islam

bugboy

Agreed. compared to the amount of muslims the actual % of fanatics is thankfully low. And a fanatic of any religious persuasion is bad news

tony de wonderful

You don't need to be a foaming at the mouth fanatic to want an Islamist revolution.

Indeed you need to be a secular muslim to oppose it, and Islam has never had an enlightenment so secularism is in a sense alien to the Islamic world!

Martin2005

The difficultly I have with this analysis is that Islam doesn't have a unified voice, it doesn't have a leader and it doesn't have any kind of central command.

JTaylor

A couple of questions if I may, as you clearly have an interest in the subject. First, what % would you apply to your statement and second, what is your definition of 'fanatic' in the context of Islamism?

JTaylor

It does, and his name is Muhammed.

JTaylor

So Islam's in the clear, then? I assume the establishment were wrong to extradite Abu Hamza when it was, in fact, Fleet Street and our education system who perpetuated 7/7 London.

bugboy

guys not wanting to get into this really, what I will say is I dont know a muslim that agree's with the man with a hook. and I know quite a few (myself included)..

As far as I am Concerned I find that the majority of Muslims are peaceful people just wanting to get on with life. You certainly can't cast all Muslims in the same sentence as some nutter from Bradford killing his sister for something or another nutter with a hook brainwashing gullible people into thinking they will go to heaven for killing innocents.

also without changing the direction of this thread. it has long been known in the middle east that certain muslim denominations are worse than others.

Leslie

It is not so much the basic Islamic religion we need to fear as much as those who are actively using it to promote their own private agenda for their own personal reasons.

Les

JTaylor

It's a shame you that weren't prepared to answer my questions, bugboy. Nevermind, I'll try another, do you renounce Islamism?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

No you are quite right, let's condemn a whole religion because several idiots decided to blow up some trains and buses in the name of it.

Point is that the media stir people up and those dumb enough tar all Muslims with the same brush because of that which is of course what the media want as it gives them news to sell.

People like Abu Hamza are evil, but why does that make the whole Muslim religion and all the other Muslims living peacefully in Britian something to worry about?

bugboy

Sorry buddy, this is a public forum and you are asking me my personal view..

Why would anyone renounce any religion? if you dont like said religion then dont worship, it is a personal thing anyway. ie. between you and God.

for the record I went to a C of E school and sang hyms and went to church like the rest of my class mates. my parents didn't kick up a fuss at the time, and where only to happy for their son to be educated in Christianity. this is the view of all my Muslim family and friends, which is why I commented on the post originally.

Education is the key, without it you end up like Mr Hook.

JTaylor

Agenda? Reasons? For goodness sake chaps, why can we not talk explicitly about this stuff? It is Islamism that's being discussed, the idea that Islam is all encompassing and that the Qu'ran should be the source of Law, Economics, Education and so forth.

23:1: "Successful indeed are the believers";[41] Sura 9:14 "Fight them and God will punish them at your hands ... God will make you victorious over them"; Qu'ran 22:40: "God will certainly aid those who aid His (cause): for verily God is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might."

Who is this fight against?

JTaylor

I'm not asking you to renounce Islam, I'm asking you to state that you are apposed to Islamism.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam...edirected=true

Do you subscribe to Liberal Democracy, for example, and if so would you feel able to announce the fact publicly? My guess is that you'll avoid giving a clear and concise answer to the question, buddy.