salsa-king

We've had a letter from Pier Management wanting £117.50 per flat (£100+vat), for a 12month 'Licence to Sublet' for a Flat we rent out.

After reading through my lease I am yet to find where it states that we can't Sub-Let.
This was never mentioned by my solicitor when I bought my flats a number of years ago.

This week I will be getting a second reading of the lease by a solicitor again just to confirm what I already think I know.
page 9 of the lease, section 10(a)
a copy of the lease is here,
http://www.parkviewcourt.co.uk/PVC_lease.pdf
does anyone with Legal knowledge understand the section I refer to?



Pier also ask about details of the tenants and if they are DSS/Student/Asylum Seeker etc, my wife seems to think there's a Data protection and human rights issue about disclosing information about tenants, is this correct?


has anyone had dealings with Pier Management or know about subletting fees and leases



BUT out of interest, doing a google search about over high Sub-Letting Fees and PIER Management you find some very interesting forums and blogs about this very same thing!!!!!

here's are just two I found that might interest you!!!

UK Leasehold Forum - Pier Management Resident Confirmation cards

Pier Management - Blagger.com - The place to leave feedback and comments about companies you have used

scud8

iTrader: (1)

That subsection seems to be saying that, if you sub-let for more than 12 months there needs to be an agreement between the freeholder, the management company, you and the tenant that makes the tenant subject to the same covenants in the lease as you are. It does say this has to be at your expense, but it doesn't say the management company have to be the people to draw it up, or that it has to be renewed yearly. It also doesn't make any mention of a "licence to sub-let".

I would be tempted to draw up my own agreement (it should be pretty simple as it really only needs to reference section 2 of the lease), have you and your tenant execute it, then send it to the management company with space for them to execute it and get the freeholder to execute it. The agreement should be clear that it lasts for the duration of the sub-let. I suspect the management company will still try to charge you an admin fee for signing the agreement, but this shouldn't be £100+vat and you won't need to pay every year.

I own a flat in Swansea that my son is staying in while he is at university. The management company keep sending me letters telling me I need their permission to sub-let, and no matter how many times I tell them that this doesn't count as a sub-let they can't get it into their thick skulls.

salsa-king

my solicitor said it only applies if I 'sub let' for a 12month (or more) contract, seeing that my tenancy agreements are for 6 or 9months she said the 12month agreement doesn't apply and that they are trying it on to extort extra money off people.

i'm glad you seem to read it we do.

I will be ringing Pier tomorrow to tell them what MY lease says!!!

SteveRiddell

Salsa-King,
I've had one of these demands from Pier Management too. I've been subletting my flat for over a decade, albeit in 6-month blocks. I paid Pier (or M.A.S. as they were then) a subletting fee in 2001 and there was no mention of it having a time-limit.

Have you phoned them yet? How did you get on?

salsa-king

inteserstingly I rang them on Monday, told them t's not in our lease to give them notification etc etc, I was told (he sounded shocked!) to email my comments in and they'd look into it!


I've had TWO legal friends.. one convayences for a living with her own practice.. and both said it only says we need to gve them information on sub lettng if our contracts EXCEED 12months!!!!


Mine don't


Not had any responce back to my email yet I sent it Tuesday evening.

thenailqueen

Hi Salsa King,

I too have received the yearly subletting fee bills for my 3 flats and after checking the internet am now considering digging and delving a bit more about Pier Management. The links you posted were very interesting.
I will be looking into this and leave any useful info on this site for anyone who is interested.

Mani

Hi Salsa-king,

I too own a leasehold flat which is managed by Pier Management and is sub-let.

I've also received a very similar letter for the first time this week despite owning the flat for years and having sublet it the whole time.

My advice is to reply to the letter supplying the information they have asked for and ask them to provide details of how the charge is calculated stating that you believe it to be too high. If they fail to provide you with compelling reasons to justify the charge then dispute the amount of the charge with the LVT (leasehold valuation tribunal).

There seem to be similar cases on the LVT website where the tribunal has found charges of £25 - £35 to be reasonable. As this is much higher it is well worth disputing.

I experienced a similar situation with another management company last year and the residents association got together and disputed it as a group and the management company caved in wrote off the charges before it got to LVT.

The more people that dispute this charge the better.

P.S Don't worry about the tone and threatening wording of the letter. Once you've requested further information they have to provide it and the 14 day term doesn't apply. I'd suggest imposing similar deadlines on them. E.g. If no reply has been received within 14 days i will take that as notification that the charge has been waived.

salsa-king

the big thing is, I'm not in breach of the lease, it doesn't say in the lease we have give any information on sub letting,

AND... asking for peoples (tenants) details is a data protection issue, when I mentioned it on the pone to pier on Monday, he said... 'you have a point'.

+Doc+

Holy new people signing up thread Batman!
Sounds like a Mine field, good luck

salsa-king

Doc..... hmmmmmm lol

thenailqueen

Pier Management Update
I emailed PM to say that they had overcharged me for one of my flats & they replied that several invoices had gone out incorrectly & they have sent me a revised invoice.

I have also told them that I have asked my solicitor to check my leases & obligations re subletting to which PM have not replied. Update to follow when I hear from my solicitor.
NQ

salsa-king

this might interest you, as I emaile dthem last week, and got a letter reply on Tuesday..

thenailqueen

Hi,
Thanks alot for that I will let my solicitor know. Just goes to show that you need to challenge these people.
Regards.
TC

scud8

iTrader: (1)

Since they have admitted in writing that they had not read your lease prior to sending you the bill, you should send them a bill for your and your solicitor' time because you had to review it.

salsa-king

I'm very temped to do that

Hanley

Do it.

thenailqueen

Hi,

I received an email yesterday from my solicitors confirmint that:

'in these circumstances, I do not have to get permission from my landlord, or pay them or their agent any management fees'. Thye have also suggested that I reclaim any monies I have paid PM in the past.

I shall be sending a copy of this email to PM and let you know their respons, if any. Once I am back in the UK, beginning of March, I shall check my accounts and make a claim including my solicitors fees and let you all know how I get on.

I am also considering posting a note on the notice boards of the blocks of flats to alert others to get their leases checked out.

Thanks for all your help guys.

salsa-king

keep us in the loop

thenailqueen

Will do but probabley won't have any news until mid March.
Cheers

thenailqueen

Haven't forgotten going back to UK today for a week so will be contacting PM.

thenailqueen

Hi all,

Suprise, suprise I received the exact same letter as Salsa King. Of course they totally ignored my request for my solicitors fees to be refunded, which I expected. I have emailed them today to say that,unless I hear from them to the contrary within the next 14 days, I shall be deducting the fee from their next invoices to me as they also collect the ground rent.
TC

salsa-king

keep us posted, i don't hold much hope with them.
every year I get a demand for upaid ground rent going back to about 2006, every year I spend time rnging them, going over what i said the revious year, sending photo copies of bank statements t show the GR was paid... etc etc. will wait to see what comes through later this year.. again.

thenailqueen

Good luck. I have also written to another manag.co. Freehold Manager plc as I get the same sort of letter from them each year and very stupidly have been paying it for the last 4 years. This time I have asked them to check the lease to see what their response is. I have just signed a petition on the governments petition site that someone has raised asking for management companies to be regulated, for what it's worth but you never know.
TC

thenailqueen

Letter received from Pier Management declining my request for a refund of sols fees. I have now emailed them and asked them for their reasons.
TC

salsa-king

I bet they don't reply to the email.

thenailqueen

Oh I am sure they won't but I won't let it end there. Being a member of our residents association for our estate I shall be asking them to let other landlords know, in their news letter, that if anyone else receives these bills from PM and other agents to ensure they ask the management co. to check their records first before asking solictors as they won't get the costs refunded.
TC

thenailqueen

Your right I am being ignored. I am also being ignored by Freehold Managers plc at the moment with the same thing, I wonder why? I have posted a note on the Residential Landlords Association forum site so maybe some other landlords will pick it up. When I get back to the UK in May if I havent heared anything from the other two I shall be phoning them.
TC

salsa-king

think you've upset them lol

thenailqueen

Oh well ho hum. I have just emailed Trading Standards for their advice.

thenailqueen

PS. I have also found out that I can complain to the Companies Investigation Branch at companies house, the Business Anti-Fraud HMRC Intellegence and the Office of Fair Trading if need be. Should keep me busy.