Tory T*ssers' about turn.
03 November 2009, 09:33 AM
#3
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I really don't get Cameron. All he has to do is say OK, Tories in, you get a referendum on the EU - in or out. With that and a couple of other policies he'd wipe Labour off of the political map, possibly for ever, and he really would become the 'boy king'. But he's too much of a lying toady to do that ......
Dave
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03 November 2009, 09:36 AM
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I understand that the tories will not have the referendum if it (Lisbon treaty) is ratified before the election - lets face it NL will try thier darndest to get it ratified or perhaps this is a tory plot to force an early election.
I cannot see why the tories will not have a referendum and allow the people of this country to vote - they said they would, this was one of the policies that defined the difference between them and the Lib Dims and Nu liar and now they are just the same - spineless scheisters. will be looking to UKIP i think, Torys have lost my vote.
Camoron - you ****!
I cannot see why the tories will not have a referendum and allow the people of this country to vote - they said they would, this was one of the policies that defined the difference between them and the Lib Dims and Nu liar and now they are just the same - spineless scheisters. will be looking to UKIP i think, Torys have lost my vote.
Camoron - you ****!
03 November 2009, 10:02 AM
#6
Referendum would have been pointless anyway, as if the tories eventually did come into power, NL would have already signed and ratified it. (When is Brown going to call an election or does the public need to organise a coup? )
The complication is if we don't sign it, we're out of Europe. Some will say that's in our best interest, but voting on the treaty isn't the way to decide that - a public vote on if we want to be in the EU is the answer.
The sticky issue is whilst I don't like the sound of the changes in the treaty (I'll admit to only reading the highlights and not the small print)I don't think the public are fully aware of what the EU does for us as much as what we do for them. I belive many EU problem are actually caused by the UK's government not properly interpretting or amending regs to suit the country's needs and best interests (which is what other EU states do - without penalty), possibly via inaction via our publically elected UKMEPs doing squat (or not knowing what they should be doing). In short, most EU issues that affect the UK are derived from the UK's government - past and present (with more emphasis on the latter
).
As we know Tory are pro-EU, as are NL. So in essence you can't have a pro-EU party rejecting that treaty. Regardless of what the spin says, thats a fact.
The complication is if we don't sign it, we're out of Europe. Some will say that's in our best interest, but voting on the treaty isn't the way to decide that - a public vote on if we want to be in the EU is the answer.
The sticky issue is whilst I don't like the sound of the changes in the treaty (I'll admit to only reading the highlights and not the small print)I don't think the public are fully aware of what the EU does for us as much as what we do for them. I belive many EU problem are actually caused by the UK's government not properly interpretting or amending regs to suit the country's needs and best interests (which is what other EU states do - without penalty), possibly via inaction via our publically elected UKMEPs doing squat (or not knowing what they should be doing). In short, most EU issues that affect the UK are derived from the UK's government - past and present (with more emphasis on the latter
).As we know Tory are pro-EU, as are NL. So in essence you can't have a pro-EU party rejecting that treaty. Regardless of what the spin says, thats a fact.
Last edited by ALi-B; 03 November 2009 at 10:04 AM.
03 November 2009, 10:09 AM
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Referendum would have been pointless anyway, as if the tories eventually did come into power, NL would have already signed and ratified it. (When is Brown going to call an election or does the public need to organise a coup? )
The complication is if we don't sign it, we're out of Europe. Some will say that's in our best interest, but voting on the treaty isn't the way to decide that - a public vote on if we want to be in the EU is the answer.
The sticky issue is whilst I don't like the sound of the changes in the treaty (I'll admit to only reading the highlights and not the small print)I don't think the public are fully aware of what the EU does for us as much as what we do for them. I belive many EU problem are actually caused by the UK's government not properly interpretting or amending regs to suit the country's needs and best interests (which is what other EU states do - without penalty), possibly via inaction via our publically elected UKMEPs doing squat (or not knowing what they should be doing). In short, most EU issues that affect the UK are derived from the UK's government - past and present (with more emphasis on the latter ).
As we know Tory are pro-EU, as are NL. So in essence you can't have a pro-EU party rejecting that treaty. Regardless of what the spin says, thats a fact.
The complication is if we don't sign it, we're out of Europe. Some will say that's in our best interest, but voting on the treaty isn't the way to decide that - a public vote on if we want to be in the EU is the answer.
The sticky issue is whilst I don't like the sound of the changes in the treaty (I'll admit to only reading the highlights and not the small print)I don't think the public are fully aware of what the EU does for us as much as what we do for them. I belive many EU problem are actually caused by the UK's government not properly interpretting or amending regs to suit the country's needs and best interests (which is what other EU states do - without penalty), possibly via inaction via our publically elected UKMEPs doing squat (or not knowing what they should be doing). In short, most EU issues that affect the UK are derived from the UK's government - past and present (with more emphasis on the latter
).As we know Tory are pro-EU, as are NL. So in essence you can't have a pro-EU party rejecting that treaty. Regardless of what the spin says, thats a fact.
Last edited by NotoriousREV; 03 November 2009 at 10:13 AM.
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03 November 2009, 10:27 AM
#8
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Referendum would have been pointless anyway, as if the tories eventually did come into power, NL would have already signed and ratified it. (When is Brown going to call an election or does the public need to organise a coup? )
The complication is if we don't sign it, we're out of Europe. Some will say that's in our best interest, but voting on the treaty isn't the way to decide that - a public vote on if we want to be in the EU is the answer.
The sticky issue is whilst I don't like the sound of the changes in the treaty (I'll admit to only reading the highlights and not the small print)I don't think the public are fully aware of what the EU does for us as much as what we do for them. I belive many EU problem are actually caused by the UK's government not properly interpretting or amending regs to suit the country's needs and best interests (which is what other EU states do - without penalty), possibly via inaction via our publically elected UKMEPs doing squat (or not knowing what they should be doing). In short, most EU issues that affect the UK are derived from the UK's government - past and present (with more emphasis on the latter ).
As we know Tory are pro-EU, as are NL. So in essence you can't have a pro-EU party rejecting that treaty. Regardless of what the spin says, thats a fact.
The complication is if we don't sign it, we're out of Europe. Some will say that's in our best interest, but voting on the treaty isn't the way to decide that - a public vote on if we want to be in the EU is the answer.
The sticky issue is whilst I don't like the sound of the changes in the treaty (I'll admit to only reading the highlights and not the small print)I don't think the public are fully aware of what the EU does for us as much as what we do for them. I belive many EU problem are actually caused by the UK's government not properly interpretting or amending regs to suit the country's needs and best interests (which is what other EU states do - without penalty), possibly via inaction via our publically elected UKMEPs doing squat (or not knowing what they should be doing). In short, most EU issues that affect the UK are derived from the UK's government - past and present (with more emphasis on the latter
).As we know Tory are pro-EU, as are NL. So in essence you can't have a pro-EU party rejecting that treaty. Regardless of what the spin says, thats a fact.
Oh, and with regards to the argument 'it's so complicated you need to leave it to the politicians to understand and implement'. a) Please don't insult our intelligence with that argument when most politicians have a brain the size of a flea and b) if it is so damn complicated our politicians SHOULDN't sign up to it until it is easy to understand! Or they're not doing their job.
Dave
Last edited by hutton_d; 03 November 2009 at 10:29 AM.
03 November 2009, 10:32 AM
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Personally I think Labour are so dire that the Tories will be in irrespective of a guaranteed referendum or not. The Tories would only play the referendum trump card if the election was a close run thing. Sad but IMO true
03 November 2009, 10:41 AM
#10
The UK 'gold -plating' EU regs is valid but the problem with the Lisbon treaty is that they can now take more powers without a new treaty. We are basically a part of a federal Europe now. You see, they'll ratchet up the pressure to have EU foreign policy, tax raising powers (see Copenhagen for that as well!), basically unless we withdraw that's the end of the UK as an independent country.
Oh, and with regards to the argument 'it's so complicated you need to leave it to the politicians to understand and implement'. a) Please don't insult our intelligence with that argument when most politicians have a brain the size of a flea and b) if it is so damn complicated our politicians SHOULDN't sign up to it until it is easy to understand! Or they're not doing their job.
Dave
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03 November 2009, 10:46 AM
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Why is this such a surprise to everyone, it was clear even to a thicko like me that the conservatives weren't going to hold a vote after the treaty had been ratified.
Oh and it's also worth stating that it was the Conservatives that sold this country to the EU when they sign up to the Maastricht treaty. Everything that is happening today with Lisbon goes directly back to that treaty, don't forget that!!
Oh and it's also worth stating that it was the Conservatives that sold this country to the EU when they sign up to the Maastricht treaty. Everything that is happening today with Lisbon goes directly back to that treaty, don't forget that!!
03 November 2009, 11:09 AM
#12
Oh, and with regards to the argument 'it's so complicated you need to leave it to the politicians to understand and implement'. a) Please don't insult our intelligence with that argument when most politicians have a brain the size of a flea and b) if it is so damn complicated our politicians SHOULDN't sign up to it until it is easy to understand! Or they're not doing their job.
Dave
But when you look at voting stats where as nearly many people voted in the last series of X-factor and Come dancing than in most elections. Of which which in the last general turn out (circa 20million) was only representive of one third of the UK's population (60million), its never a true representation of public opinion - only a third of it. The other two thirds could have the totally opposite opinion, or maybe not - if the ones elegible could be arsed to vote that is.
And given the public's tendancy to go with whats fashionable (John and Edward? Hmmmm
) rather than fact. One does wonder on the proportion of some of the public's intelligence when they are allowed to do the voting on important national issues.With that in mind, I can understand why Labour didn't do it and thats also why I'm not that bothered to see the Torys not bothering either - because the public will just vote for what the papers tell them to (which is a big fat anti-EU "NO" - not what a pro-EU party wants). By public, I don't mean everyone - Of course there are many people who know better, but there always seems to be a large, if not larger number of people who are more easily led, rather than understand the consequences of takeing either action.
03 November 2009, 11:10 AM
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Politician in lie telling shocker!
Not really news is it?
Oh and it was the Tories that took us into the Common Market orginally too.
In fact they are the main reason we are where we are.
Not really news is it?
Oh and it was the Tories that took us into the Common Market orginally too.
In fact they are the main reason we are where we are.
03 November 2009, 11:15 AM
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Do we really want to be stuck out on the fringes going it alone? Or do we want to be with the masses, and go forward as a whole with the rest of Europe?
Personally I don't think our long term future is very good unless we become one of Europe's mainstream players. We need to stop messing about, and get on board with what is going on. I don't think we can go it alone against the US and a Euro zone.
If we actually stopped messing about and got on with it, we could start to influence policy in our direction. As it stands France and Germany make more of the decisions, and only allow the EU directives to affect their country in the way that they want them to. Our government has been too weak.
Personally I don't think our long term future is very good unless we become one of Europe's mainstream players. We need to stop messing about, and get on board with what is going on. I don't think we can go it alone against the US and a Euro zone.
If we actually stopped messing about and got on with it, we could start to influence policy in our direction. As it stands France and Germany make more of the decisions, and only allow the EU directives to affect their country in the way that they want them to. Our government has been too weak.
03 November 2009, 11:57 AM
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If we actually stopped messing about and got on with it, we could start to influence policy in our direction. As it stands France and Germany make more of the decisions, and only allow the EU directives to affect their country in the way that they want them to. Our government has been too weak.
If we actually stopped messing about and got on with it, we could start to influence policy in our direction. As it stands France and Germany make more of the decisions, and only allow the EU directives to affect their country in the way that they want them to. Our government has been too weak.
And the EU is as beholden as the UK government to big business rather than the electorate, whom they care not one jot for. One example I've just seen .... Big business bullies EU into open source U-turn ? The Register
"... The latest version of the European Interoperability Framework - which aims to offer governments and businesses guidance on using open source software - has substantially weakened its definition of what open source is. This follows years of lobbying by the BSA, representing multinational, and substantially closed-source, companies. ..."
The sooner we get out the better!
Dave
03 November 2009, 12:21 PM
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If Cameron refuses us our referendum he has put himself on the same level as our egregious leaders.
We have to remember that Flash signed the Lisbon Treaty(Constitution) on the day after the other Eu states (or most of them) signed it, to ratify it as far as the UK was concerned. Thyis was of course without our approval of what he was doing to our country! He went the day after in the hope that we might not notice what he was up to!
Both parties now have betrayed us and our country as well as lying to us about it. It is a shameful state of affairs.
Cameron may well find a nasty backlash to his own hopes since many people may now turn to UKIP, or even to the BNP which is a real worry.
The Eu is following the advice of Jean Monnet who advocated a federated Europe and said that the way to counter the various electorates' objections was to create the Eu federation on the sly by feeding the constitution in by little bits until it had gone so far that they can say that it might as well go full cycle since it was nearly complete anyway. We are seeing the final stages now!!!!
Les
We have to remember that Flash signed the Lisbon Treaty(Constitution) on the day after the other Eu states (or most of them) signed it, to ratify it as far as the UK was concerned. Thyis was of course without our approval of what he was doing to our country! He went the day after in the hope that we might not notice what he was up to!
Both parties now have betrayed us and our country as well as lying to us about it. It is a shameful state of affairs.
Cameron may well find a nasty backlash to his own hopes since many people may now turn to UKIP, or even to the BNP which is a real worry.
The Eu is following the advice of Jean Monnet who advocated a federated Europe and said that the way to counter the various electorates' objections was to create the Eu federation on the sly by feeding the constitution in by little bits until it had gone so far that they can say that it might as well go full cycle since it was nearly complete anyway. We are seeing the final stages now!!!!
Les
03 November 2009, 12:35 PM
#18
It certainly seems like we as a country are being railroaded which is a great pity.
I don't pretend to understand the ins and outs of any of this, all I have seen is a lot of pro propaganda saying we should be in Europe and a lot of anit propaganda saying oh my God we're no longer going to be a country. none of this really tells me anything.
Is there just a simple list of any benefits and any cons to the UK of being part of a USE that a simple chap like me could understand?
I don't pretend to understand the ins and outs of any of this, all I have seen is a lot of pro propaganda saying we should be in Europe and a lot of anit propaganda saying oh my God we're no longer going to be a country. none of this really tells me anything.
Is there just a simple list of any benefits and any cons to the UK of being part of a USE that a simple chap like me could understand?
03 November 2009, 12:47 PM
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Looks like 'call me Dave' has got a sniff of the EU gravy train.
Looks like UKIP and the BNP are ther only options left now.
Looks like UKIP and the BNP are ther only options left now.
Last edited by unclebuck; 03 November 2009 at 12:48 PM.
03 November 2009, 01:03 PM
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03 November 2009, 01:06 PM
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But that won't happen will it? Ever since dear old Ted signed as up, but only after a) France and Germany had written the CAP rules so that they would receive shed-loads of dosh whilst everybody else got a pittance and b) they re-wrote the fishing policy to scr3w us out of our own fish in our own waters(!!), we have had ZERO say in what happens. Doesn't matter whether it's the fault of the EU *constitutions/treaties or our politicians being cr4p, we need to get out as we will never have any major influence.
And the EU is as beholden as the UK government to big business rather than the electorate, whom they care not one jot for. One example I've just seen .... Big business bullies EU into open source U-turn ? The Register
"... The latest version of the European Interoperability Framework - which aims to offer governments and businesses guidance on using open source software - has substantially weakened its definition of what open source is. This follows years of lobbying by the BSA, representing multinational, and substantially closed-source, companies. ..."
The sooner we get out the better!
Dave
And the EU is as beholden as the UK government to big business rather than the electorate, whom they care not one jot for. One example I've just seen .... Big business bullies EU into open source U-turn ? The Register
"... The latest version of the European Interoperability Framework - which aims to offer governments and businesses guidance on using open source software - has substantially weakened its definition of what open source is. This follows years of lobbying by the BSA, representing multinational, and substantially closed-source, companies. ..."
The sooner we get out the better!
Dave
03 November 2009, 01:27 PM
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the problem is that unelected scottish tosser who is in no 10 doesn't give a flying **** about the country anymore, labour are shot and the closest they can get to gettin back in is having blair running the whole of europe. tories don't really have a choice on the treaty because as soon as the czech's sign it at gunpoint the treaty is complete and theres no way of gettin out of it.
03 November 2009, 01:30 PM
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Do we really want to be stuck out on the fringes going it alone? Or do we want to be with the masses, and go forward as a whole with the rest of Europe?
Personally I don't think our long term future is very good unless we become one of Europe's mainstream players. We need to stop messing about, and get on board with what is going on. I don't think we can go it alone against the US and a Euro zone.
If we actually stopped messing about and got on with it, we could start to influence policy in our direction. As it stands France and Germany make more of the decisions, and only allow the EU directives to affect their country in the way that they want them to. Our government has been too weak.
Personally I don't think our long term future is very good unless we become one of Europe's mainstream players. We need to stop messing about, and get on board with what is going on. I don't think we can go it alone against the US and a Euro zone.
If we actually stopped messing about and got on with it, we could start to influence policy in our direction. As it stands France and Germany make more of the decisions, and only allow the EU directives to affect their country in the way that they want them to. Our government has been too weak.
03 November 2009, 01:36 PM
#24
Yes because socialist superstates have a great track record dont they? What about the 140 countries that arent in the EU - are they going to wither and die because they dont have 130000 regulations on tagging goats? Being out of the EU is an ADVANTAGE! You get to make your own laws that serve your own interests and trade with who you like, set taxes at whatever rate you like and have SELF GOVERNANCE, that'll be the thing that we fought the last war over. The other option is slavery to a bureaucratic superstate which no democracy to change anything. You're seriously telling me thats a good idea? Get real
If NL or any of the opposing UK parties were in charge, I'd be as bold to say that its NOT a good idea to be out the EU.
We can't govern ourselves in the EU, we'd be like headless chicken out of it. We'd fare better as the 51st state of the USA (and on that I hold strong reserves).
03 November 2009, 01:37 PM
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the problem is that unelected scottish tosser who is in no 10 doesn't give a flying **** about the country anymore, labour are shot and the closest they can get to gettin back in is having blair running the whole of europe. tories don't really have a choice on the treaty because as soon as the czech's sign it at gunpoint the treaty is complete and theres no way of gettin out of it.
03 November 2009, 02:08 PM
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the problem is that unelected scottish tosser who is in no 10 doesn't give a flying **** about the country anymore, labour are shot and the closest they can get to gettin back in is having blair running the whole of europe. tories don't really have a choice on the treaty because as soon as the czech's sign it at gunpoint the treaty is complete and theres no way of gettin out of it.
There is no reason why we cannot still have a referendum even if the Czechs have ratified it, the people of this country have an unalienable right to express their wishes which trancends the right of any of our leaders to accept it against our will.
Les
03 November 2009, 03:18 PM
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03 November 2009, 04:01 PM
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I am genuinely interested because UKIP is now one of my voting options, now Camoron has had his spine removed
Last edited by The Zohan; 03 November 2009 at 04:12 PM.
