Scooby Soon!

I pull up outside my house 10 minutes ago and wait until its clear to back in with my hazard lights on. A vito goes round me and smashes his mirror into mine, mine takes a little chip from the edge his breaks up and sends bits flying all over the place he doesn't slow for a second but i can see just the wires poking out from where his mirror once was. It was 04 reg, why would he of not stopped???

So I think i better call the local police station just to report it just in case of any comebacks, I am then told that me the good guy has to take 30 to 45 minutes out of my busy life to go to the police station with my driving license (both parts), V5 logbook, insurance, MOT certificate and probably some other documents I have forgot because "someone hit me and drove off!"

Thanks very much coppers the innocent is shafted again, why on earth can it not be done over the phone????

Oh and I was told it has to be done with in 24 hours as well, other wise the big stick of justice for me!

SunnySideUp

That's how it has always been - what's the issue??

Snazy

As SSU says, its the way it goes, always been like that. Dont take it to heart. You're not being shafted, you are being asked to produce.

You have entered the "reporting an accident" zone, which is a 24 hour thing.

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

Aye, it may be an inconvenience now, but at least doing this will heave no reprecussions on yourself if the van driver suddenly turns up after 23 hours and 59 minutes

Seriously, with the over protective PC twaddle floating about nowadays, thank yourself lucky you're just producing documents for the five-0

PaulC72

I don't think you need to report a broken wing mirror unless you want to of course.

Scooby Soon!

Just seems such a waste of time, my driving license is on the computer,
my v5 details are on the computer, so is my MOT and insurance. So why do I need to take them with me?
The lady on the phone saif no matter how small the damage is, if they don't stop they are classed as leaving the scene of an accident unless they report it with in 24 hours.

My van has now been involved in 4 accidents all not my fault and have almost 0 damage to my mine but all others have had lots of damage, best advice I can give is keep away from my vehicle!

The Rig

iTrader: (13)

i had similiar yrs ago,we both hit wing mirrors,she was close to white line,so was i.

we exchange a few verbals and she is all blah blah blah,her bloke says shut it woman,mate,both in the wrong,we agree to just leave it.

few days later,a letter in post,i didnt stop at scene of accident etc,hmmm

phone the number,explain we both agreed,no further action.

suppose it depends on who takes the phone call ?????

s70rjw

iTrader: (2)

The Road Traffic Act identifies police responsibilities in relation to accidents. The police are charged to carry out duties in relation to the Road Traffic Act.
You are challenging legislation as oposed to police doing their job.
Get over it.You are not being shafted, you are complying with the Road Traffic Act and your obligations to it.
Have you been driving long?

ScoobyWon't

The Road Traffic Act states that it's the injured party who must report the accident.

We actually have better things to do than fill in accident cards on a Friday night.

Timwinner

iTrader: (3)

It doesnt state that. I am afraid to say that the accident did not comply with sec 170. That requires both parties to stop and exchange details if no injury or significant damage has occurred.
You have reported an incident and you have been request to prove you have the legal right to be on the road in the first place.
Once you have proved this then they can make steps to locate the other driver who would be charged with a fail to stop offense.

Its not the Police that are shafting you its the law of the land that requires you to do this.
I have dealt with countless fail to stops both representing victims and offenders and trust me this is just a necessary part of the procedure, it will not only be necessary in order for you allegation to be completed but it will be necessary to prove you are making a fault free claim on your insurance.

I know it sounds harsh and I am not meaning to but you have to understand that every law in the land has a protocol, The Police dont write the laws but if they dont follow them they have hell to pay.
If you dont want a complaint to the police to be investigated then dont call the Police. If you do want there hele then understand that there are protocols to be followed.

Sorry if any of that sounds mean, I am still in work mode.

ScoobyWon't

The Blackstone's manual must have got it wrong again. Why doesn't that doesn't surprise me?

Timwinner

iTrader: (3)

It doesnt state it for a lot of reasons. I am not sure of your legal understanding so I wont bang on about it but if you had your legs chopped off and got airlifted to hospital would it be right to assume you are suggesting any driving offense would get thrown out as the injured party did not report the incident.

I have worked in law for many many years, And in a previous role I would consider this a bread and butter case for me.

In this case we are talking about a clear cut 170. I can see no other offense, at a push if I was in the mood I would go for a UCA but it would be very hard to prove.
This is the actual wording of a 170

DUTY OF DRIVER TO STOP, REPORT ACCIDENT AND GIVE INFORMATION OR DOCUMENTS

1) This section applies in a case where, owing to the presence of a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road, an accident occurs by which -
(a) personal injury is caused to a person other than the driver of that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(b) damage is caused -
(i) to a vehicle other than that mechanically propelled vehicle or a trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(ii) to an animal other than an animal in or on that mechanically propelled vehicle or a trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(iii) to any other property constructed on, fixed to, growing in or otherwise forming part of the land on which the road in question is situated or land adjacent to such land

(2) The driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle must stop and, if required to do so by any person having reasonable grounds for so requiring, give his name and address and also the name and address of the owner and the identification marks of the vehicle.

(3) If for any reason the driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle does not give his name and address under subsection (2) above, he must report the accident.

(4) A person who fails to comply with subsection (2) or (3) above is guilty of an offence.

(5) If, in a case where this section applies by virtue of subsection (1)(a) above, the driver of a motor vehicle does not at the time of the accident produce such a certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned.in section 165(2) of this Act -
(a) to a constable, or
(b) to some person who, having reasonable grounds for so doing, has required him to produce it, the driver must report the accident and produce such a certificate or other evidence. This subjection does not apply to the driver of an invalid carriage.

(6) To comply with a duty under this section to report an accident or to produce such a certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned in section 165(2)(a) of certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned in section 165(2)(a) of this Act, the driver -
(a) must do so at a police station or to a constable, and
(b) must do so as soon as is reasonably practicable and, in any case, within twenty-four hours of the occurrence of the accident

(7) A person who fails to comply with a duty under section (5) above is guilty of an offence, but he shall not be convicted by reason only of a failure to produce a certificate or other evidence if, within seven days after the occurrence of the accident, the certificate or other evidence is produced at a police station that was specified by him at the time when the accident was reported.

(8) In this section "animal" means horse, cattle, ***, mule, sheep, pig, goat or dog.

[Road Traffic Act 1988, s 170 amended by the Road Traffic Act 1991, Sch 4].

ScoTTyB

Thakyou Tim, like we're gonna read that.

Timwinner

iTrader: (3)

Its a pleasure, I am glad you had something worthwhile to add to this topic that you obviously have a massive grounding in.

ScoTTyB

I like to dig holes and I have a friend called Tim. Now I'm off to eat some peanuts. Have fun now.

ScoTTyB

...btw **** u

ScoobyWon't

My understanding is a reportable accident must:

- take place on a public road or other public place
- involve a mechanically propelled vehicle
- result in damage to property or injury to a person other than the driver or his/her vehicle.

The damage must be to another vehicle or object, such as a bicycle, road sign, or a garden wall. The damage can be done to private property, but the acident itself must take place in a public place. Damage does not have to be permanent or beyond repair but the physical appearance must have been altered in some way.

After an accident, the driver must stop, which includes remaining at the scene for as long as necessary to provide information to others (s 172(2) RTA 1988). Failing to stop at an accident is a serious offence and is committed even if the person reports the incident at a later date.

At the scene the driver must provide particulars to anyone with reasonable grounds for needing the information. The driver must provide:
- his name and address
- the name and address of the vehicle's owner
- the identification marks of the vehicle

Failing to stop is an offence under s 170(4) RTA 1988.

Under s 170(3) and (6) of the RTA 1988 if the driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle does not provide the appropriate information then the accident must be reported as soon as reasonably practicable but not later than 24 hours later - though it is for the court to decide what is 'reasonably practicable' for the particular circumstances.

The driver must report in person to a constable or a police station. It is not sufficient to telephone or fax or email, nor should the driver just wait for the police to make contact.

ScoobyWon't

Well I read it

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Oh, such a helpful reply.

Tim is clearly trying to offer some information to the op, that maybe helpful to his situation. It might be a long read, but at least he is trying to be constructive.

s70rjw

iTrader: (2)

Failing to stop is an offence under s 170(4) RTA 1988.

Under s 170(3) and (6) of the RTA 1988 if the driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle does not provide the appropriate information then the accident must be reported as soon as reasonably practicable but not later than 24 hours later - though it is for the court to decide what is 'reasonably practicable' for the particular circumstances.

The driver must report in person to a constable or a police station. It is not sufficient to telephone or fax or email, nor should the driver just wait for the police to make contact.

Never let legislation get in the way of Scoobynet opinion..............

Timwinner

iTrader: (3)

I can tell from your reply you are a TPT officer or something like that anyways. (very very very hard job, you dont get enough credit)
I am your arch nemesis!!!! The horrible bloke in interviews that uses tiny little turns of sentence's to make you job harder!!! haha. I was in work mode last night and I was just jumping on a technicality I would have used to get someone off the hook.
I am sure you have been there. I was an officer for a few years before I moved across.
Long and short of it is, and I am sure you will agree, The OP needs to comply with the RTA protocol and provide HORT1 details.
Police will then look into finding the other guy.
Police are not being bad to him, they just have to follow a procedure. Its not personal, there not picking on him. Its just an necessary evil of reporting a moving vehicle incident.

ScoobyWon't

I'm just a (normal?) uniformed response cop. But I am considering completing a Criminology degree so I'm trying to learn as much as possible.

Lawyers and solicitors haven't bothered me so far. I just see it as a competition, I expect to be pushed for disclosure, but I know I'm on to a winner if I'm facing a 'No Comment' interview.

dsmith

Ok - so we need to prove we're on legal to be on the road....but in this age of computers all the docs are on-line. That should take the police a few seconds to verify rather than require a visit in person with bits of paper.

ScoobyWon't

Unfortunately the legislation that has been in place for years still makes it an offence not to carry your documents with you. I can't see the government changing it simply as data is available electronically.

Leslie

Is it actually an offence not to carry those documents then. Why do we just get a producer rather than be taken to court for not having them with you?

Les

Leslie

Charming!

Les

Timwinner

iTrader: (3)

The law excepts that its not practical or safe to carry all your documents with you all the time, The HORT1 form (producer, 7 day wonder etc etc) is in place as a waiver type service to allow the person who has been requested to provide details 7 days from Midnight on the day they were requested to produce there documents at a Police station on their choice.

If you fail to produce after 7 days then you will get chased up.
If you are stopped by the Police and the various systems (PNC etc) show that you have insurance you might not always get asked to produce those details but due to driving licenses being forged, endorsed via totting up etc the system can not always be relied on, and the day the police rely on the system and its not been updated and an unlicensed driver kills someone you know what kind of outrage there will be.

Sorry for the long answer

Leslie

Thanks for that Tim. Helps to understand the reasoning.

Les

ScoobyWon't

Les, Tim's hit the nail on the head. When stopping drivers I simply explain it as two seperate offences:

1) Not carrying the documents.
2) Not being able to produce them when requested.

Some people do get annoyed at being issued a HO/RT1, others think they are in big trouble as I will give them the 'now' caution at the road side. At the end of the day it's practical policing to do so and in 99% of cases no-one has hada problem with the way that I have dealt with them.

I inform them that they are not under arrest and that they may leave at any time (but don't leave is a top tip). The 'Now' caution is then given "You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mention now something that you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?" I'll then record the response to caution and fill in the HO/RT1.

The alternative to issuing a HORT/1 requiring the driver to produce at a police station would be to issue a summons to court when reporting for consideration of the offences at the roadside. The advantages of the HO/RT1 means that the driver saves time and the court saves money by not having to deal with what is mainly seen by drivers as a trivial matter.

If you prefer a boring but important explanation of the Road Traffic Act sections in relation to issuing a HO/RT1 they are:
s 163 gives a constable the power to stop a vehicle.
s 164 gives a constable the power to request driving licence and Date of Birth
s 165 gives a constable the power to request insurance and test certificate

Documents will only be checked if no offence has been committed, but they will be recorded if an offence has been committed. This is down to the issuing constable to decide.

If requesting a driving licence:
The law provides that a person who fails to produce his licence to a constable for examination shall be guilty of an offence. It is a defence for the person to show that (a) within 7 clear days he produced it in person at a specified police station; or (b) he produced it in person there as soon as reasonably practicable (e.g. you were stopped on your the way to the airport for a two week holiday); or (c) it was not reasonably practicable for it to be produced before the day on which proceedings commenced. The person may instead produce a Fixed Penalty Driving Licence Receipt either at the time
or within 7 clear days at the specified police station, provided that if required, he produces his licence in person at the police station immediately on its return.

I apologise to ScoTTyB if this explanation is too long but Tim's knowledge of the law and my knowledge of policing may as well be used to the advantage of the community.

Jerome

I recently had someone drive into the back of me and not stop. Luckily only minor damage though.

Phoned up the police and was told I needed to report to a police station. I elected to go to my local plod station and was suprised to find out that they were closed at 5pm.

My second trip to the police station near work involved a bit of paperwork. I was also asked for my documents. I said to the desk guy "I'd have to be pretty stupid to report an accident without insurance or MoT". He said, "You'd be surprised how many people do just that...". So, another trip to the station the next day to produce my doccies.

My 3rd trip to the police station could have been avoided if the person I spoke to on the phone had told me to take all my documents. Not exactly the biggest inconvenience though.