Gym membership
#1
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Gym membership
Did the common thing and joined a fancy gym with the mrs 6 months ago. I was previously a member of a another gym where I could cancel whenever I wanted.
Basically the mrs has got bored with this new gym and I want to cancel our joint membership as I am more into my road running now anyway's.
She was told 1 month ago by a member of staff that we have to give 2months notice, which is fair enough. However, after sending in our official letter of cancellation a month ago, the mrs received a phone call today saying that we can't cancel early.
Basically, what happens if I just cancel the direct debit?
Basically the mrs has got bored with this new gym and I want to cancel our joint membership as I am more into my road running now anyway's.
She was told 1 month ago by a member of staff that we have to give 2months notice, which is fair enough. However, after sending in our official letter of cancellation a month ago, the mrs received a phone call today saying that we can't cancel early.
Basically, what happens if I just cancel the direct debit?
#2
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They try and chase after you for further fees. You check the small print, and if legal to, you ignore them. Worst case scenario they try and chase you for pennies! Unlikely though.
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I was in the same boat as you, joined a posh fredbloggs gym, gold membership with Mrs.
She got bored, I couldnt train properly with women everywhere, they distracted me.
So I went back to my backstreet gym, pay as you go.
Bailiffs came knocking after a couple of ignored letters.
They have the law on their side, and if you read the small print you are tied in.
I had a bad back injury and my Doctor wrote them a note/letter to say this would stop me training for at least 12 months, this did the trick.
Going to jail works too.
She got bored, I couldnt train properly with women everywhere, they distracted me.
So I went back to my backstreet gym, pay as you go.
Bailiffs came knocking after a couple of ignored letters.
They have the law on their side, and if you read the small print you are tied in.
I had a bad back injury and my Doctor wrote them a note/letter to say this would stop me training for at least 12 months, this did the trick.
Going to jail works too.
Last edited by yoza; 29 May 2009 at 11:46 AM.
#7
as above if your tied in the only way to get out of it is get a doctors note or try and pay them off, ignoring them wont get you any where as you will have the bailiffs after you, remember these gyms rely on people to join and not go to make their money.
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#8
Hang on, bailiffs are appointed by the Courts, so what you are saying is you didn't turn up to court (after you received a summons) or send in a defence, subsequently the claim was processed against you (you would have had several letters by now) and were sent a bill showing the amount you owe and any additional costs, you failed to pay this (after several letters) got a CCJ (another letter telling you this) on your credit file, then as a last resort bailiffs were appointed to seize goods from any premises owned by you ................etc
Lets be honest, you didn't have bailiffs round did you?
Anyway, say a gym membership is £40 or £480 a year, even if you owed all of that it still wouldn't be cost effective for the company to issue a claim against you, they might send you a load of threat letters saying they are going to steel your dog etc, but in the small claims track, I don't think so.
Lets be honest, you didn't have bailiffs round did you?
Anyway, say a gym membership is £40 or £480 a year, even if you owed all of that it still wouldn't be cost effective for the company to issue a claim against you, they might send you a load of threat letters saying they are going to steel your dog etc, but in the small claims track, I don't think so.
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Its a tough one mate as its you and the mrs, I would have suggested the doctors note as this worked for me when I changed gyms. Dont think that will work, unless you both blag the docs notes! worth a try to save time and effort. It can be done...
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Dedrater posted....Hang on, bailiffs are appointed by the Courts, so what you are saying is you didn't turn up to court (after you received a summons) or send in a defence, subsequently the claim was processed against you (you would have had several letters by now) and were sent a bill showing the amount you owe and any additional costs, you failed to pay this (after several letters) got a CCJ (another letter telling you this) on your credit file, then as a last resort bailiffs were appointed to seize goods from any premises owned by you ................etc
Bailiffs are not solely appointed by the courts (its known as early intervention), I was never summons to court, as I said I did ignore several letters...bailiffs (one of) from a reclaimation agency working on behalf of fredbloggs did knock at my address.
I did give a Doctors note to the manager at the fredbloggs (which I had to pay for) explaining my injury.
I did have to pay the arrears but not the full term, the costs for the letters and knock were not paid for by myself.
My wife paid her reduced single subscribtion to the end of the term, but never used the facility.
Bailiffs are not solely appointed by the courts (its known as early intervention), I was never summons to court, as I said I did ignore several letters...bailiffs (one of) from a reclaimation agency working on behalf of fredbloggs did knock at my address.
I did give a Doctors note to the manager at the fredbloggs (which I had to pay for) explaining my injury.
I did have to pay the arrears but not the full term, the costs for the letters and knock were not paid for by myself.
My wife paid her reduced single subscribtion to the end of the term, but never used the facility.
Last edited by yoza; 29 May 2009 at 11:47 AM.
#11
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Surely if you've signed up for 12 months then you shoud pay for 12 months.
You sign up for a 12 mobile mobile phone contract and you can't just not pay cause 'you're bored with your tarrif'
You've got 2 choices IMO, go to the gym and get your moneys worth or accept the loss.
You sign up for a 12 mobile mobile phone contract and you can't just not pay cause 'you're bored with your tarrif'
You've got 2 choices IMO, go to the gym and get your moneys worth or accept the loss.
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Hanley you are right, but certain leisure groups use inappropriate avenues to persue their loss, and do it in a threatening manor, so I believe in having a go rather than rolling over.
I signed a contract to use the facility, but the fact that the saunas/towel spinners/carpark barrier control/gym equipment/showers were often broken/unusable was actually a flaw in their contract, but this was overlooked.
Dedrater I believe is getting mixed up with County Court Bailiffs who are civil servants working on behalf of the courts.
Whereas Private Bailiffs (see below) who will work for anyone who pays.
Private Bailiffs
Certificated bailiffs are granted a certificate by a County Court Judge which allows them to Levy Distress. The certificate lasts for just two years and authorises the bailiff to levy distress anywhere in England and Wales. To obtain a certificate, the applicant must satisfy the Judge that he is a “fit and proper person” to hold a certificate, and that he has a sufficient knowledge of the law of distress, and also that he is not in the business of buying debts. They must also provide two references, undergo a criminal records check, a County Court Judgment check and finally, provide a security bond of £10,000. This final requirement normally being an insurance bond.
They are "not officers of the court" and are "not employed by the court". However, they are seen as representatives of the court because they act under the authority of a Certificate issued by the court. The court therefore exercises, under the certification process, a certain amount of control over the standards of competence and conduct of these bailiffs. Other than that, there is no formal regulatory structure of Certificated Bailiffs, although those that are members of the Certificated Bailiffs Association are subject to the complaints procedure of that body.
Only Certificated Bailiffs can carry out distress for rent, council tax, non-domestic rates and parking fines, child support agency arrears etc.
Later Yoza
I signed a contract to use the facility, but the fact that the saunas/towel spinners/carpark barrier control/gym equipment/showers were often broken/unusable was actually a flaw in their contract, but this was overlooked.
Dedrater I believe is getting mixed up with County Court Bailiffs who are civil servants working on behalf of the courts.
Whereas Private Bailiffs (see below) who will work for anyone who pays.
Private Bailiffs
Certificated bailiffs are granted a certificate by a County Court Judge which allows them to Levy Distress. The certificate lasts for just two years and authorises the bailiff to levy distress anywhere in England and Wales. To obtain a certificate, the applicant must satisfy the Judge that he is a “fit and proper person” to hold a certificate, and that he has a sufficient knowledge of the law of distress, and also that he is not in the business of buying debts. They must also provide two references, undergo a criminal records check, a County Court Judgment check and finally, provide a security bond of £10,000. This final requirement normally being an insurance bond.
They are "not officers of the court" and are "not employed by the court". However, they are seen as representatives of the court because they act under the authority of a Certificate issued by the court. The court therefore exercises, under the certification process, a certain amount of control over the standards of competence and conduct of these bailiffs. Other than that, there is no formal regulatory structure of Certificated Bailiffs, although those that are members of the Certificated Bailiffs Association are subject to the complaints procedure of that body.
Only Certificated Bailiffs can carry out distress for rent, council tax, non-domestic rates and parking fines, child support agency arrears etc.
Later Yoza
#13
Im a member of David Lloyd and have just resigned. Im finding £70 a month, for a dirty gym, broken machines and facilities which dont work, too much.
Yes, my contract is similar to a phone contract i.e.I had to sign up for 12 months. What is annoying, is that if you felt you want to leave, and on the 9th month gave your 3 month notice period, then in theory when your contract ends, you can leave.
Ohhh noooo, you can only resign after your 12 months is up, aka your paying for 15 months now ! That's what pi55es me off !
As for the Dr's note, Ive tried that, DL just suspend your membership now, until well. Unless your illness means you can never use a gym again, then, they try thier hardiest. I told them my back was bad, due to previous injuries years ago, all backed up byt a dr's note / consultant's letter. They replied with a letter stating how swimming will help ! lol and as they have a pool, no need to cancel my membership.
So, in the end, I resigned and 02rd July will be my last direct debit. In the meantime, Ive sub let my membership card out to mates, £4 a visit ! :-)
The problem with these contract gyms, is that in the back of your mind you know your paying £18 a week, so feel that you need to use it atleast twice a wekk. If you do long work hours, and cant make it, you suddenly feel that your wasting your money and need to go, to make it worthwhile. This forced reasoning then makes you dislike the gym and dont want to go. I would prefer a PAYG type gym, better than my local council lesuire centre which seems to cater for pensioners, like David Lloyd but none of the finanical committment.
SBK
Yes, my contract is similar to a phone contract i.e.I had to sign up for 12 months. What is annoying, is that if you felt you want to leave, and on the 9th month gave your 3 month notice period, then in theory when your contract ends, you can leave.
Ohhh noooo, you can only resign after your 12 months is up, aka your paying for 15 months now ! That's what pi55es me off !
As for the Dr's note, Ive tried that, DL just suspend your membership now, until well. Unless your illness means you can never use a gym again, then, they try thier hardiest. I told them my back was bad, due to previous injuries years ago, all backed up byt a dr's note / consultant's letter. They replied with a letter stating how swimming will help ! lol and as they have a pool, no need to cancel my membership.
So, in the end, I resigned and 02rd July will be my last direct debit. In the meantime, Ive sub let my membership card out to mates, £4 a visit ! :-)
The problem with these contract gyms, is that in the back of your mind you know your paying £18 a week, so feel that you need to use it atleast twice a wekk. If you do long work hours, and cant make it, you suddenly feel that your wasting your money and need to go, to make it worthwhile. This forced reasoning then makes you dislike the gym and dont want to go. I would prefer a PAYG type gym, better than my local council lesuire centre which seems to cater for pensioners, like David Lloyd but none of the finanical committment.
SBK
Last edited by sbk1972; 28 May 2009 at 08:38 AM.
#14
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Hang on, bailiffs are appointed by the Courts, so what you are saying is you didn't turn up to court (after you received a summons) or send in a defence, subsequently the claim was processed against you (you would have had several letters by now) and were sent a bill showing the amount you owe and any additional costs, you failed to pay this (after several letters) got a CCJ (another letter telling you this) on your credit file, then as a last resort bailiffs were appointed to seize goods from any premises owned by you ................etc
Lets be honest, you didn't have bailiffs round did you?
Anyway, say a gym membership is £40 or £480 a year, even if you owed all of that it still wouldn't be cost effective for the company to issue a claim against you, they might send you a load of threat letters saying they are going to steel your dog etc, but in the small claims track, I don't think so.
Lets be honest, you didn't have bailiffs round did you?
Anyway, say a gym membership is £40 or £480 a year, even if you owed all of that it still wouldn't be cost effective for the company to issue a claim against you, they might send you a load of threat letters saying they are going to steel your dog etc, but in the small claims track, I don't think so.
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Hanley you are right, but certain leisure groups use inappropriate avenues to persue their loss, and do it in a threatening manor, so I believe in having a go rather than rolling over.
I signed a contract to use the facility, but the fact that the saunas/towel spinners/carpark barrier control/gym equipment/showers were often broken/unusable was actually a flaw in their contract, but this was overlooked.
Dedrater I believe is getting mixed up with County Court Bailiffs who are civil servants working on behalf of the courts.
Whereas Private Bailiffs (see below) who will work for anyone who pays.
Private Bailiffs
Certificated bailiffs are granted a certificate by a County Court Judge which allows them to Levy Distress. The certificate lasts for just two years and authorises the bailiff to levy distress anywhere in England and Wales. To obtain a certificate, the applicant must satisfy the Judge that he is a “fit and proper person” to hold a certificate, and that he has a sufficient knowledge of the law of distress, and also that he is not in the business of buying debts. They must also provide two references, undergo a criminal records check, a County Court Judgment check and finally, provide a security bond of £10,000. This final requirement normally being an insurance bond.
They are "not officers of the court" and are "not employed by the court". However, they are seen as representatives of the court because they act under the authority of a Certificate issued by the court. The court therefore exercises, under the certification process, a certain amount of control over the standards of competence and conduct of these bailiffs. Other than that, there is no formal regulatory structure of Certificated Bailiffs, although those that are members of the Certificated Bailiffs Association are subject to the complaints procedure of that body.
Only Certificated Bailiffs can carry out distress for rent, council tax, non-domestic rates and parking fines, child support agency arrears etc.
Later Yoza
I signed a contract to use the facility, but the fact that the saunas/towel spinners/carpark barrier control/gym equipment/showers were often broken/unusable was actually a flaw in their contract, but this was overlooked.
Dedrater I believe is getting mixed up with County Court Bailiffs who are civil servants working on behalf of the courts.
Whereas Private Bailiffs (see below) who will work for anyone who pays.
Private Bailiffs
Certificated bailiffs are granted a certificate by a County Court Judge which allows them to Levy Distress. The certificate lasts for just two years and authorises the bailiff to levy distress anywhere in England and Wales. To obtain a certificate, the applicant must satisfy the Judge that he is a “fit and proper person” to hold a certificate, and that he has a sufficient knowledge of the law of distress, and also that he is not in the business of buying debts. They must also provide two references, undergo a criminal records check, a County Court Judgment check and finally, provide a security bond of £10,000. This final requirement normally being an insurance bond.
They are "not officers of the court" and are "not employed by the court". However, they are seen as representatives of the court because they act under the authority of a Certificate issued by the court. The court therefore exercises, under the certification process, a certain amount of control over the standards of competence and conduct of these bailiffs. Other than that, there is no formal regulatory structure of Certificated Bailiffs, although those that are members of the Certificated Bailiffs Association are subject to the complaints procedure of that body.
Only Certificated Bailiffs can carry out distress for rent, council tax, non-domestic rates and parking fines, child support agency arrears etc.
Later Yoza
To cap it off, Bannatynes gyms are sh1te, JJB is better equipped!
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Did the common thing and joined a fancy gym with the mrs 6 months ago. I was previously a member of a another gym where I could cancel whenever I wanted.
Basically the mrs has got bored with this new gym and I want to cancel our joint membership as I am more into my road running now anyway's.
She was told 1 month ago by a member of staff that we have to give 2months notice, which is fair enough. However, after sending in our official letter of cancellation a month ago, the mrs received a phone call today saying that we can't cancel early.
Basically, what happens if I just cancel the direct debit?
Basically the mrs has got bored with this new gym and I want to cancel our joint membership as I am more into my road running now anyway's.
She was told 1 month ago by a member of staff that we have to give 2months notice, which is fair enough. However, after sending in our official letter of cancellation a month ago, the mrs received a phone call today saying that we can't cancel early.
Basically, what happens if I just cancel the direct debit?
I canceled by Bannantyne's membership earlier this year. Had no idea when my contract ended (been joined for years) but I made sure they signed a receipt for my cancellation letter. The lass behind the desk said they were not allowed to sign receipts (probably so they can lose your letter & keep charging you) but after stating I wasn't leaving till someone did, she signed it.
#17
Dedrater I believe is getting mixed up with County Court Bailiffs who are civil servants working on behalf of the courts.
Whereas Private Bailiffs (see below) who will work for anyone who pays.
Private Bailiffs
Certificated bailiffs are granted a certificate by a County Court Judge which allows them to Levy Distress. The certificate lasts for just two years and authorises the bailiff to levy distress anywhere in England and Wales. To obtain a certificate, the applicant must satisfy the Judge that he is a “fit and proper person” to hold a certificate, and that he has a sufficient knowledge of the law of distress, and also that he is not in the business of buying debts. They must also provide two references, undergo a criminal records check, a County Court Judgment check and finally, provide a security bond of £10,000. This final requirement normally being an insurance bond.
They are "not officers of the court" and are "not employed by the court". However, they are seen as representatives of the court because they act under the authority of a Certificate issued by the court. The court therefore exercises, under the certification process, a certain amount of control over the standards of competence and conduct of these bailiffs. Other than that, there is no formal regulatory structure of Certificated Bailiffs, although those that are members of the Certificated Bailiffs Association are subject to the complaints procedure of that body.
Only Certificated Bailiffs can carry out distress for rent, council tax, non-domestic rates and parking fines, child support agency arrears etc.
Later Yoza
Whereas Private Bailiffs (see below) who will work for anyone who pays.
Private Bailiffs
Certificated bailiffs are granted a certificate by a County Court Judge which allows them to Levy Distress. The certificate lasts for just two years and authorises the bailiff to levy distress anywhere in England and Wales. To obtain a certificate, the applicant must satisfy the Judge that he is a “fit and proper person” to hold a certificate, and that he has a sufficient knowledge of the law of distress, and also that he is not in the business of buying debts. They must also provide two references, undergo a criminal records check, a County Court Judgment check and finally, provide a security bond of £10,000. This final requirement normally being an insurance bond.
They are "not officers of the court" and are "not employed by the court". However, they are seen as representatives of the court because they act under the authority of a Certificate issued by the court. The court therefore exercises, under the certification process, a certain amount of control over the standards of competence and conduct of these bailiffs. Other than that, there is no formal regulatory structure of Certificated Bailiffs, although those that are members of the Certificated Bailiffs Association are subject to the complaints procedure of that body.
Only Certificated Bailiffs can carry out distress for rent, council tax, non-domestic rates and parking fines, child support agency arrears etc.
Later Yoza
A pirate bailiff is a bailiff certificated in the County Court under The Distress for Rent Rules 1988. This is specifically for Commercial rent arrears or Local Authority taxes etc, the clue was in your post mate.
Thats a whole different ball game to what we are talking about here, that being gyms and the fact they lay them off the debt collection agencies.
If someone ever has someone knock at there door, I can guarantee you it was not a bailiff, it was a 'representative' of the DCA, but this goes against the OFT Debt Collection Guidelines anyway which states the DCA has to make an appointment with you first. Unfortunately most people do not know there rights in this matter and are scared into paying.
For anyone receiving letters from gyms etc demanding payment, all you need to do is write a cease and desist letter which orders them (by law) to stop contacting you.
#18
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Dedrater said..." Hang on, bailiffs are appointed by the Courts."
I said..." They are not officers of the court and are not employed by the court."
And yes a Bailiff knocked on my door, without me being summons to court, the company he worked for were not acting on any court summons but simply an order from the Leisure company.
Fact.
If you doubt it, dont worry, its not an issue, implying I am a liar is an issue.
Dedrater wrote..." Lets be honest, you didn't have bailiffs round did you? "
I said..." They are not officers of the court and are not employed by the court."
And yes a Bailiff knocked on my door, without me being summons to court, the company he worked for were not acting on any court summons but simply an order from the Leisure company.
Fact.
If you doubt it, dont worry, its not an issue, implying I am a liar is an issue.
Dedrater wrote..." Lets be honest, you didn't have bailiffs round did you? "
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Dedrater - I'm sure Yoza knows a bailiff when he sees one
Yoza you're right to have a go mate if the facilities are that bad then I would myself.
£70 a month seems pretty steep, I didn't know it was that much, I use the local leisure centres on a pay as you go basis, we play Badminton once a week during lunch in the Bootle centre which is only a couple of quid and I can use the facilities in the Prescot centre if I need to.
Fair enough, I'm sure they're not up to David Lloyd standards with fit chicks bursting out of the woodwork but they have lockers, fairly decent showers and good equipment - they also don't harass you. Works for me.
I'm also safe in the knowledge I'm not lining someone like Banatyne's pockets either
Yoza you're right to have a go mate if the facilities are that bad then I would myself.
£70 a month seems pretty steep, I didn't know it was that much, I use the local leisure centres on a pay as you go basis, we play Badminton once a week during lunch in the Bootle centre which is only a couple of quid and I can use the facilities in the Prescot centre if I need to.
Fair enough, I'm sure they're not up to David Lloyd standards with fit chicks bursting out of the woodwork but they have lockers, fairly decent showers and good equipment - they also don't harass you. Works for me.
I'm also safe in the knowledge I'm not lining someone like Banatyne's pockets either
#20
Didn't say you were lying, but I do know for a fact he was not a bailiff, but if you can find anything relating to what you are saying here>
Bailiff advice
I will retract that statement.
To give you an example, I have the necessary qualifications to set up my own Debt collection agency, I then employ staff and move on to buying debt from credit card companies, gyms etc. I will send you letters say pay this else we will be send an 'agent' or 'collection official' etc round to your house, legally I am not allowed to do this, the only way I am allowed to send a bailiff round is if you default on a CCJ, it would 100% have had to go before a Magistrate first.
Bailiff advice
I will retract that statement.
To give you an example, I have the necessary qualifications to set up my own Debt collection agency, I then employ staff and move on to buying debt from credit card companies, gyms etc. I will send you letters say pay this else we will be send an 'agent' or 'collection official' etc round to your house, legally I am not allowed to do this, the only way I am allowed to send a bailiff round is if you default on a CCJ, it would 100% have had to go before a Magistrate first.
Last edited by Dedrater; 28 May 2009 at 02:55 PM.
#21
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I worked as a bailiff for 4 years, I know what a bailiff is, and does.
I have worked for members of this forum and reclaimed their losses.
I dont want you to retract your statement...thanks anyway.
I have worked for members of this forum and reclaimed their losses.
I dont want you to retract your statement...thanks anyway.
#22
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Deep breath..............pinch ears......
YouTube - whoosa I process my anger bad boys
WOOSA......WOOSA........Woosa...woosa...thats better.
YouTube - whoosa I process my anger bad boys
WOOSA......WOOSA........Woosa...woosa...thats better.
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Close your eyes......
You're on a nice tranquil beach....
You can hear the soft sound of the sea...
Enjoy the peaceful silence...
and Dedrater runs up shouting 'You don't know anything about bailiffs' na na na na na
You're on a nice tranquil beach....
You can hear the soft sound of the sea...
Enjoy the peaceful silence...
and Dedrater runs up shouting 'You don't know anything about bailiffs' na na na na na
Last edited by Hanley; 28 May 2009 at 03:34 PM.
#25
A debt collector is NOT a bailiff
Some collection agencies may threaten to send someone to your home if you refuse to pay them the amounts they request. As a representative of a Debt Collection Agency, they have no powers at all. You do not need to speak to them if you do not wish to. If you are in any doubt, contact Payplan for clarification about a bailiff’s powers and free, impartial advice.
When are bailiffs used?
Bailiffs can be instructed to seize goods for payment of debts from your home if you fail to pay your creditors when it's with the court (such as through a County Court Judgement or CCJ): they can also be used to repossess your home or to enforce certain arrest warrants
Bailiffs and Bailiff Laws | Debt Advice | Payplan
Some collection agencies may threaten to send someone to your home if you refuse to pay them the amounts they request. As a representative of a Debt Collection Agency, they have no powers at all. You do not need to speak to them if you do not wish to. If you are in any doubt, contact Payplan for clarification about a bailiff’s powers and free, impartial advice.
When are bailiffs used?
Bailiffs can be instructed to seize goods for payment of debts from your home if you fail to pay your creditors when it's with the court (such as through a County Court Judgement or CCJ): they can also be used to repossess your home or to enforce certain arrest warrants
Bailiffs and Bailiff Laws | Debt Advice | Payplan
Bailiffs are often described as debt collectors but this is not quite accurate. The crucial difference is that debt collectors cannot take people's goods and sell them to pay what's owed. With rare exceptions, bailiffs enforce court orders and warrants issued by Government departments. These are mostly to do with the recovery of debt but bailiffs also can evict and arrest people.
Bailiff Law,Certificated Bailiffs,Uncertificated bailiffs,County Court Bailiffs,High Court Enforcement Officers,County Court Bailiffs,Tribunals Courts & Enforcement Bill,ACEA
Bailiff Law,Certificated Bailiffs,Uncertificated bailiffs,County Court Bailiffs,High Court Enforcement Officers,County Court Bailiffs,Tribunals Courts & Enforcement Bill,ACEA
#26
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: LIVERPOOL THE CENTRE OF EXCELLENCE
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Oh dear, Deadrater has started editing bits from his posts.....Whoosa.
Where has the bit gone were he was getting help from his "friends" on a "Law Site", bring on the cavalry, Ha ...Whoosa.
Whoosa.......
Where has the bit gone were he was getting help from his "friends" on a "Law Site", bring on the cavalry, Ha ...Whoosa.
Whoosa.......