Deep Singh

I'm a bit confused about who is allowed to do these drawings, is it only architects?
It also seems that an architect gets an engineer/draughtsmen to do the calculations for beams etc and drawings and then charges a big fat fee for himself. Fine if as the architect you are designing a complicated new structure but I'm talking about relatively straight forward domestic extensions.

So, is it possible to cut out the architect and just get an engineer to do building reg drawings and therefore save money?

Btw, I'm talking about something that doesn't need pp and will be covered by the new permitted development rules

Thanks

john_s

iTrader: (1)

Anyone can produce Building Regs drawings; all they need to do is show the information Building Control need to see to be able to approve the project.

Issues that need structural design calculations (eg sizing a beam) are probably best left to a structural engineer, as Building Control will expect to see a copy of the calcs and will check them (or send them out another engineer for checking).

Coffin Dodger

Just been doing the same myself. No need for an architect if you know pretty much exactly what you want. An architect is there to advise on aspects of building design as well as actually draw up a set of plans, so if you've done the design work yourself just get a good draughtsman who understands all the latest regs and deals with the local building control on a regular basis. They'll know what the building control office wants to see.

Most architects and draughtsman will refer to a third party for structural calculations (i.e. the size and shape of any supporting beams) and you'll pay for their work on top of the draughtsman's quote.

Neanderthal

iTrader: (6)

Employ the services of an architectural technician. We're the people who make the architects designs work and therefore buildable
Calculations for structural steelwork etc need to be done by a qualified structural engineer.

stilover

But weren't clever enough to become a fully fledged Architect.

Architectural Technician = Monkey

Architect = Organ Grinder

Deep Singh

Thanks. Had one architect come around today who wants to charge £50 hour to do the survey and sketches and reckons it will take 15 hours.

Then he wants 5% of the build cost to do the building regs drawing and has told me the structural engineer will need 'about £1000 for the calcs.

This could bring his fees up to about £5k (inc struct engineer) for a loft conversion and rear 2nd floor extension!

That's got to be way too much hasn't it?

Neanderthal

iTrader: (6)

touche! ;-)

Don't pay by the hour, agree a fixed price. For planning drawings £500-£800 is reasonable depending on the size of what's needed.
He's not exactly going to have to draw much for a loft conversion and the 2nd floor extension, unless it's overly complicated shouldn't be much more work either.

Get more quotes for the work. At the moment there are so many people eager for the work you should get a better deal.
Some builders will prepare the building regs drawings as part of their package.

£2k + structural engineers fees is all I'd expect to pay.

scooby L

Architect = Glorified Artist (Expensive at that)

As Neandethal says, find a technician and save yourself some money.

Or do as I did, draw your own design and go to the library regarding 95% of the issues, then use a strucutal engineer to calc any complicated stuff (circa £600 for roof and beams)

Deep Singh

Thanks, £2k is about what I was thinking.

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

If its for a loft conversion ? surely the company who does the work will submit thier own plans and therefore no need for an architect

scooby L

No Steve, most builders will ask for proven reg's now. (Back covered and all that.)

Deep Singh

The all in one loft conversion companies include all the drawings etc in the package price. I'm keen to get a price from a builder who has done work for me before and he has asked for building reg drawings before he can give me a quote

I'll do a search for architectural techs in my area

Deep Singh

Searching under architechural techs London just shows up loads of job adverts from companies looking to recruit techs.
No actual adverts from the techs themselves.

How do I find one??

stilover

Technicians generally are employed by an Architects practice. Think your best way is to find someone you know who is a Technician or a friend who knows someone who's a Technician. Freelance work.

Guy who worked here did this sort of thing on a night for pocket money. Small house extensions etc for £250-£1000. Depending on size/complications etc.

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

I know building work is building work, but I would be far more inclined to have a loft conversion done by someone that has done loads of them than just getting a builder you are happy with ??

Deep Singh

Thanks Stilover, not sure I know anybody who knows a tech, but will ask around.

Steve, that has ocurred to me and its a difficult one. The loft conversion companies do lofts day in day out, but I'm also having a 2nd floor extension done at the same time, would they be as good at that?

Also the builder built a whole house (shell) for my father in law so I'm sure he is capable of a loft conversion. I'd be interested in your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

Why not play both against each other for a better quote? Building work is in the toilet as far as prices are concerned and what ever they have quoted you is already far far too much as they will be trying it on. Plus what ever they say I would still ask for a 10% discount as joe blogs or whatever will do it cheaper? For the money you must be spending on both it has to go past the idea I like this builder!

ooooohh a whole house ?? Thats not a reason to get someone in for say £60k's worth of work. People like yourself generally have no idea of quality work? Builders can generally get away with poor quality work all the time due to working for different clients in the private sector. I work on the commercial side and it makes me laugh at the state of work people turn out who try and have a go on the commercial side of things

Deep Singh

Steve, I'm a bit confused by your post.

1) I have a builder who has done work for me and shown himself to be reliable and honest and do good quality work. He has also done numerous projects for my father in law including building a whole house with no probs.

2) I've got three local established loft conversion companies to quote on the work.

3) I will get my builder to give a quote (after I get drawings) and will give him the job if he is cheaper all the others. I'm hoping and expecting he will be

So I get the job done for the cheapest price from the guy I know best

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

My post meant because he has built a whole house does not mean he will do a good job on the loft coversion. The nightmare of getting the steel alone into place ?

My other point was that all these companies are going to quote you far too much money. The contractors I know are having to drastically reduce costs to get work. If you know someone who got a loft conversion done say 4 years ago I would be looking for a quote to resemble that.

Deep Singh

Thanks Steve I take your point. My point was that I know that the specialised loft companies will try and charge too much and that's why I'm hoping that my builder will undercut it

I do take your point that just because you are a general builder doesn't necessarily mean you are good at loft extensions. But to be honest it doesn't seem that a loft conversion is rocket science, I reckon a well seasoned builder can handle it and won't charge the premium that dedicated conversion companies do.

Btw, had another architect around today who will charge £900 for the whole thing. I can't believe the other idiot wanted £750 just to measure the place up, £1k for the structural engineer and then 5% of the build cost!

What I find flabbergasting is that people must pay these ridiculous fees. Just like the estimates I had from the conversion companies. Three came in within a few £k of each other, the fourth was TWICE the price of the cheapest. Some idiot must fall for it and pay

john_s

iTrader: (1)

It's like anything, you ask for fees that you think the market will support (or failing that, what you think you can get away with ).

Suppose the architect with the high fees generally does commercial or public sector work and little domestic work - those fees would then not be unusual. If domestic work is not their core business, they might have no interest in changing their fee structure for a one off job.

The company that has priced way high for doing the work might not especially want the job. The easiest way to make sure you don't get a job is to price high and price yourself out of it. If you happen to get the job anyway, you have plenty of money in for it. We have done it at work on occasion for jobs we don't particularly want... In some circles, it's seen as a bigger "sin" to decline to price a project than it is to submit a price that is way out.

Generally we find with projects that several contractors will price competitively around a similar figure (often within a couple of percent), one will price high (either by making a mistake or deliberately to price themselves out), and one will enter a price significantly lower than the main group (either they've made a mistake or they are trying to buy the work - the danger there for a client appointing them is of course that contractor could then be looking to find a way to get the money back on the contract).

herohair

Hi, I am an architectural assistant just about to fininsh the final part 3 exam to become an architect. The title 'architect' is protected by law, so nobody can call themselves one if they are not. The work they do however, is not protected. This means anybody can do their own drawings if they are able. What this means is that anybody hiring an architect is hiring somebody who has had minimum 5 years at university, a further 2 years professional placement and has all the necessary insurances and training.

I have discovered that there is a large number of people who misunderstand just what it is an architect does, and after reading through this thread, it appears this hasn't changed. What we are not are 'glorified artist'. Designing buildings is of course what we do, but it actually forms a fraction of what we really do, and it is all this other work nobody associates with architects. I spend most of my time putting together working drawings, uvalue calcs, SAP calcs, surface water soakaway calcs, demolition method statements, dealing with foresty reports, percolation tests, putting together tender documents, blah blah blah and so on, and that is only the pre contract stuff. Get into post contract and you suddenly have contract administration and all the arcane work that is involved there. Add the fact that the industry is structured in such a way as to almost invite people to sue architects if things are delayed or go wrong, even if it is nothing to do with them, they have to be extremely diligent to do all of this work and cover their ***** at the same time. So no, glorified artists does not do us justice at all.

The engineer will not do your whole working drawing package for you. A building warrant application needs to cover all bases in building regulations, and a structural engineer (Certifier of Construction) will produce engineer's details and SER certificate for structure, and structure ONLY. This ensures that building control will not dissect your plans for structural compliance. You still need to satify all other areas, including accessibility, fire, sound and energy.

This is why the engineer does structural drawings and the architect charges a 'nice fat fee' for himself: the engineer only does part of the work. This is the case for even the smallest of jobs that require SER certs.

With small jobs such as yours, you can certainly get working drawings done cheaper if you do them yourself or pay a technician to do them. Architects will charge a higher rate for smaller jobs as they will lose money taking on such jobs at a normal rate. If these same people can produce all the other information you might need, such as energy perfomace certificates and so on, great.

As a rule, I would say that for a larger job, such as extensions or new houses, an architect is most suitable as they will be able to do all of the work required from inception to completion, where a technician can not. Nor will a techie normally have professional indemnity insurance, so if things do go **** up, you have no recourse for compensation and lose a wad of cash. Remember, you are paying for years of training, knowledge and security, which you are not guaranteed elsewhere.

Find someone you trust who is doing homers. Look for techies or architects who are doing freelance stuff outside of working hours. Check local classifieds and online at places like Gumtree. Or do it yourself if you are able.

Good luck with your work.