End of the World
er... I know I was just warning you again ...
09 September 2008, 08:31 AM
#5
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How is it going to be the end of the world tomorrow?
Death by SIAL, perhaps?
Death by SIAL, perhaps?
09 September 2008, 09:03 AM
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Steven Hawking was interviewed on Radio 4 this morning - he thinks it's safe, and that's good enough for me.
Of course, maybe one of the opponents of the experiment understands the physics a bit better than he does...?
Of course, maybe one of the opponents of the experiment understands the physics a bit better than he does...?
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09 September 2008, 11:32 AM
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I can understand the concern of those trying to stop it. There is no positive way that they can say that it is not dangerous. They do not have the knowledge in order to guarantee absolute safety.
Why dont they find a way to study the natural collisions which they say are happening all the time? Or is it that these collisions are totally different in character to what they propose to do?
Les
Why dont they find a way to study the natural collisions which they say are happening all the time? Or is it that these collisions are totally different in character to what they propose to do?
Les
09 September 2008, 12:15 PM
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I can understand the concern of those trying to stop it. There is no positive way that they can say that it is not dangerous. They do not have the knowledge in order to guarantee absolute safety.
Why dont they find a way to study the natural collisions which they say are happening all the time? Or is it that these collisions are totally different in character to what they propose to do?
Les
Why dont they find a way to study the natural collisions which they say are happening all the time? Or is it that these collisions are totally different in character to what they propose to do?
Les
Like so many things, it's all about probability. The risk is real, but what's it's probability? There is a very real risk that next time I go out in the car, I will die in an accident, but the probability is low, so I will go (actually, the probabilty is much higher than creating a black hole at CERN, but people still travel regardless!).
I don't think studying them naturally is a goer because you need very specialised equipment to detect them and you never know when or where they will happen.
Geezer
09 September 2008, 12:38 PM
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If everyone took that attitude Les, we'd all still be living in caves!
Like so many things, it's all about probability. The risk is real, but what's it's probability? There is a very real risk that next time I go out in the car, I will die in an accident, but the probability is low, so I will go (actually, the probabilty is much higher than creating a black hole at CERN, but people still travel regardless!).
I don't think studying them naturally is a goer because you need very specialised equipment to detect them and you never know when or where they will happen.
Geezer
Like so many things, it's all about probability. The risk is real, but what's it's probability? There is a very real risk that next time I go out in the car, I will die in an accident, but the probability is low, so I will go (actually, the probabilty is much higher than creating a black hole at CERN, but people still travel regardless!).
I don't think studying them naturally is a goer because you need very specialised equipment to detect them and you never know when or where they will happen.
Geezer
My point is, do they really understand the probability and have they got the right to take such a risk with our world if they don't? Nothing whatsoever to do with living in caves as you say! The people who have done all that research in the past were risking their own lives not those of others.
Of course it may all be perfectly safe, and I sincerely hope it is, but I believe it is reasonable to doubt that given that they were not even to explain it all clearly on the TV either.
Les
09 September 2008, 12:42 PM
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I can understand the concern of those trying to stop it. There is no positive way that they can say that it is not dangerous. They do not have the knowledge in order to guarantee absolute safety.
Why dont they find a way to study the natural collisions which they say are happening all the time? Or is it that these collisions are totally different in character to what they propose to do?
Les
Why dont they find a way to study the natural collisions which they say are happening all the time? Or is it that these collisions are totally different in character to what they propose to do?
Les
i take your point les - however, there are no ways to guarantee absolute safety and one has to accept the point that there is little progress without risk. even when the potential risks are profound - the atmosphere did not catch fire after trinity - nor did it after the soviet's exploded the 50MT 'tsar bombe' in the atmosphere in 1961.
if hawking and *** say the collider's safe, then that's as good a scientific guarantee as it can get. besides, the main european opponent and the man who has brought the lawsuit in the EU - professor theo rossler - is a biochemist by discipline, not a particle physicist. that's important. by definition, he will not have the specialist knowledge that hawking does. it's a little like a heart surgeon calling into question the techniques and procedures of a brain surgeon.
i cannot conceive that we may be about to create the world's greatest and most final industrial accident ... it's the stuff of hollywood - or a beach-book by dan brown. and it makes great, dramatic headlines.
09 September 2008, 12:46 PM
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You are perfectly entitled to risk your own life in a car if you wish to, but not to put other peoples' lives in danger for your own selfish reasons.
My point is, do they really understand the probability and have they got the right to take such a risk with our world if they don't? Nothing whatsoever to do with living in caves as you say! The people who have done all that research in the past were risking their own lives not those of others.
Of course it may all be perfectly safe, and I sincerely hope it is, but I believe it is reasonable to doubt that given that they were not even to explain it all clearly on the TV either.
Les
My point is, do they really understand the probability and have they got the right to take such a risk with our world if they don't? Nothing whatsoever to do with living in caves as you say! The people who have done all that research in the past were risking their own lives not those of others.
Of course it may all be perfectly safe, and I sincerely hope it is, but I believe it is reasonable to doubt that given that they were not even to explain it all clearly on the TV either.
Les
I think they understand the probability very well, it's the people who are trying to stop them that don't. I'm sure the people at CERN have no wish to kill themselves any more then you do.
I would imagine there is a greater probability of the earth being struck by a huge object to be honest, and that is an inevitability.
Geezer
09 September 2008, 01:15 PM
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I may well fall asleep at the wheel and kill others. History is full of risk to the population at large, but without those risk takers, we would not enjoy the lifestyle we do now.
I think they understand the probability very well, it's the people who are trying to stop them that don't. I'm sure the people at CERN have no wish to kill themselves any more then you do.
I would imagine there is a greater probability of the earth being struck by a huge object to be honest, and that is an inevitability.
Geezer
I think they understand the probability very well, it's the people who are trying to stop them that don't. I'm sure the people at CERN have no wish to kill themselves any more then you do.
I would imagine there is a greater probability of the earth being struck by a huge object to be honest, and that is an inevitability.
Geezer
quite. here's a sample of how LHC has freaked some people out with what i can only describe as superstitious cobblers about the "anti-christ" [whatever dark fairy that is]. suspect they just watched Omen II and though it was a reality TV show ...
YouTube - END OF WORLD WEDNESDAY CERN 666 HADRON
two gullible teenagers. or stephen hawking and brian ***. you decide ...
09 September 2008, 01:23 PM
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From the arguments I've read, the 'cosmic ray' defence is one I find totally compelling - and, crucially, not dependent on the belief of any one person or group, however educated and experienced they may be.
If, as we are told, cosmic rays striking the Earth can have even greater energy than will be generated in the LHC, then we have all the proof we need. The conditions already have been recreated, many times, and over the course of billions of years. We're all still here.
That simple observation negates the need for any theories or predictions about the creation, lifetime or potency of any potential black hole or strange matter. The high energy event has already happened, billions of times, and the Earth has survived just fine. Why should a much less energetic event be more dangerous just because its timing and position are such that it can be properly observed?
If, as we are told, cosmic rays striking the Earth can have even greater energy than will be generated in the LHC, then we have all the proof we need. The conditions already have been recreated, many times, and over the course of billions of years. We're all still here.
That simple observation negates the need for any theories or predictions about the creation, lifetime or potency of any potential black hole or strange matter. The high energy event has already happened, billions of times, and the Earth has survived just fine. Why should a much less energetic event be more dangerous just because its timing and position are such that it can be properly observed?
09 September 2008, 06:46 PM
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09 September 2008, 07:03 PM
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quote of the day from professor hawking: "i was going to have an end of the world party tonight then thought the media wouldn't realise it was a joke."
perceptive man. in addition to seer, visionary and genius. however, i wouldn't draw the line at just the media ...
perceptive man. in addition to seer, visionary and genius. however, i wouldn't draw the line at just the media ...
09 September 2008, 07:05 PM
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He also said he has a $100 bet that they won't actually find the elusive Higgs boson after all... though if he loses his bet, at least he'll have a Nobel prize as consolation 
09 September 2008, 07:11 PM
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Loved the bit about "sparticles"
Madness?
THIS IS SPARTA!!!!
09 September 2008, 07:14 PM
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09 September 2008, 08:09 PM
#29
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loads of people are hidden in the field, when they switch it on one by they will stand up and say
"I am sparticles"
"I am sparticles"
09 September 2008, 09:23 PM
#30
I can understand the concern of those trying to stop it. There is no positive way that they can say that it is not dangerous. They do not have the knowledge in order to guarantee absolute safety.
Why dont they find a way to study the natural collisions which they say are happening all the time? Or is it that these collisions are totally different in character to what they propose to do?
Les
Why dont they find a way to study the natural collisions which they say are happening all the time? Or is it that these collisions are totally different in character to what they propose to do?
Les
