The Zohan

BBC NEWS | UK | Killer drivers could avoid jail

"In addition, motorists who kill after forgetting to renew their car insurance could also avoid custody, even though the maximum sentence for the new offence of "causing death when driving while unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured" is two years in jail. "

Forget to renew their insurance, like the ones who forget to take a test or forgot they are banned or forgot their MOT.

dnc

................................woh betide if you are snapped doing 34 in a 30 zone though.

HankScorpio

This could actually lead to more "killers" being jailed.

Previously, you couldn't be jailed for careless, only dangerous and it was quite a leap from one to the other and dare I say it - I suspect that a large number of prosecutions went for the careless as an "easier" option.

Careless now has a prison sentence attached and the guidelines are saying that the degree of carelessness should be taken into account.

I'm all for them as long as they're implemented fairly with the same standards applied to all.

"Sentences for cases of careless driving just falling short of dangerous driving should have a starting point of 15 months’ imprisonment, the Council recommends."

"In cases involving “momentary inattention” and no aggravating factors offenders should be given a community sentence which could include a curfew requirement. Fines are not likely to be appropriate."

"The guideline recommends a different approach to cases involving driving unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured. As the offence may not involve any fault in the offender’s standard of driving, Parliament has set down a lower maximum penalty of two years’ imprisonment. Here in the absence of any additional aggravating factors relating to the driving the level of seriousness is guided by the nature of the unlawfulness of the offender’s driving, with driving while disqualified being the most serious category.
The starting point where the driver was disqualified is 12 months imprisonment. The Council recommends offenders should be sentenced to at least 36 weeks even if there are strong mitigating factors, such as making the decision to drive because of a genuine emergency.
The guideline again recommends that fines are not likely to be appropriate sentences in dealing with any of these offences; where non-custodial sentences are considered appropriate, a community order should be used."

So now - killing someone by careless driving, while banned, starts at 12 months. Before, you couldn't be jailed for careless.
Dangerous is still up to 14 years.

HankScorpio

And just to add - this is the BBC slipping standards in evidence. Tabloid headline that doesn't reflect what the actual story was. Killer drivers CURRENTLY avoid jail if only charged with careless.

I feel a complaint coming on...

The Zohan

My understanding was that currently some offences are not covered by currentl laws/sentencing guidelines so may escape jail.

What gets my goat is that peole could actually face community service as punishment for taking a life, even if inadvertantly. given these are new laws sentencoin guidlines.

Yough on crime and the causes balh-blah, hardly going to make the uninsured sit up and take notice is it!

every time you or i take a car out we know the risks involved, we know we are in charge of a potential dangerous machine and the consequences of poor driving, etc. Some peope just do not care.

We should be held accountable for our actions and vehicles, somehow community service for taking a life does not seem to be accountable to me.

smacks of not room in prison so lets make up some more community style sentences/guidlines - stupid and short sighted given driving standards and ythe number of people driving without liciences/insurance/banned/drunk, etc is on the increase.

robby

1 week it's said a driver causing death by careless driving while using a mobile WILL be jailed, the next they say "hey it was a mishap, don't do it again"

it's like a year or so ago when they said anyone mugging somebody for their mobile would be jailed - i've never heard of anyone getting sent down?

Diesel

Making a mistake as a normal driver and then inadvertently causing a bad accident shouldnt ever mean community service in my book. This kind of punishment & jail is for wrong 'uns who know they are up to no good, not driver errors or lapses causing accidents surely? I know its not clear cut but intent and reasonable responsibility should count as much as the fact that humans arent infalible robots. The rest seems a step forward though.

I for one do not want to be painting old peoples homes for smacking someone in the back at traffiic lights if they stall (as per my one 'at fault' accident 20yrs ago which is still bugging me - it has to have been his fault for not knowing his clutch from his throttle ). Ok ok...pass the soap on a rope!

D

Diesel

Dont apply for a job as a JP in my area Paul! That 'inadvertantly' is a big word in my book - it could be you...

D

CrisPDuk

I spent most of my lunchtime getting really wound up by Jeremy Vine's (is he Radio 2's answer to Jeremy Kyle) inane attempts to whip up some hysteria about this story

The standards of BBC's news department are getting so low these days even the Sun would be ashamred of them

HankScorpio

Exactly. They focused on the chance of avoiding jail depending on circumstances and seemed to ignore that these are actually stricter punishments than are in place at the moment.

The Zohan

And some say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit eh

Who is to say that i am not already a JP in your area.

As for my spelling/typing, really, it is only the internet and at best a car bbs, really cannot be that ar$sed to spell check or check my accuracy. I do quite well enough in the real world thanks.


if i inadvertently killed someone by my actions behind the wheel i would expect to face the full force of the law and jail.



just to finish, i wonder if you would have pulled up the spelling/typo error if you had agreed with me...

HankScorpio

So your pulling up to red lights, your foot slips off the brake because the soles of your trainers were moist after walking through a puddle (how careless), you nudge the car in front that doesn't have his handbrake on, he moves forward three feet and the front of his car is clipped by a truck, spun around, no airbags, no seatbelts and a dead driver.
Jail? Seriously?

PeteBrant

Exactly.

It is already bad enough that one families life has been ruined - The situation would not be improved by ruining the lives of another family, not to mention the person jailed for making a mistake.

Common sense will be applied. If it is deemed there has been a willfull neglect, then a custodial sentence will apply - But in the case of tragic accidents, which can and always will happen, then there is nothing to be gained from sending that person to prison.

Abdabz

I thought the same thing

If you kill someone inadvertantly - like when driving your car and losing concentration, it's a charge manslaughter that needs to be heard... It's not something a part time magistrate - come - headmaster can determine... It's for crown courts to sort out and apply the apprporiate sentence...

The Zohan

Chaps, you will not get an argument from me, accidents do happen.

common sense approach and each case looked at on its own merits is just fine by me.

I do feel that any life taken warrants careful investigation and should be prosecuted accordingly.

Did not see or hear Jeremy Vine and not likely to, more an R5 Live person. However the inferrence was that it will be easier for people to get away with lesser sentences/convictions due to the law, perhaps i misunderstood - it happens as i was driving and hads only one ear on the radio as i am a careful driver

R5 was making a few points about drivers who keep breaking the laws, no insurance, etc who get involved in accidents and could get off without jail time.

I am sure you will agree that there seems to be an increasing number of motorists who do not consider a licence or insurance important and that the punishments are at best weak and not a deterrent.

PeteBrant

To be fair , Paul, I think that's exactly whats going to happen. All I think that is being clarified is that if the death was accidental, and due to some very minor lapse in concetration (which we *all* suffer from occasionally) then your life should not necessairly be ruined by going to jail for 5 years.

Obviously if you are driving at 100mph whilst texting on your mobile, you are going to have the book thrown at you and rightly so.

The Zohan

Cool,

What of my foot slipped onto the accelerator due to wet trainers and the text is a life and death matter, would that be OK

PeteBrant

Hey, that's why Judges get paid so much, to make that sort of decision (although I doubt there is any such thing as a "life or death" text -Surely you would just ring...)

I seem to remember that in most cases offences are dealt with by a magistrates court, but they cannot sentence people to more than 6 months in prison - So where there is some likelyhood of a stiffer sentence it gets referrred to a crown court.

Martin2005

I think jailing people of small lapses of judgement would be wrong, which is why I think these guidlelines are a good thing.

Lets face this could happen to anyone of us!

What would happen if a drunk pedestrian walked into the road and caused a car swerve and a fatal accident, does the pedestrain go to jail...I doubt it, so why do the laws only apply to the motorist?

Leslie

Can't say fairer than that, and if your foot slipped because you had a wet trainer, it was down to you to make sure you could drive safely

Les

CrisPDuk

The one thing that does annoy me about all these new laws, is that all the emphasis seems to be on proving that the car driver is to blame

This despite the fact that statistics show that in most accidents involving pedestrians (which, excluding motorcycle related accidents, are the most common), it was the pedestrian that was ultimately at fault

Diesel

God! You are a touchy one arent you I assure you that there is NO sarcasm in my post or pedantic spelling checks. I was interested in the subject only - I'm not a bitchy chippy teenager you know! Forget the rest.

D

The Zohan

OOOps!
Perhaps i should have had a coffee befoe i posted, was not meant to look that way, perhaps missing a LOL to kick off and another smilie or two

[Davey]

Got to remember alot of people make 'innocent' mistakes.. Yeah if someone is driving like a dick and they kill someone then come down on them like a tonne of bricks! but if its a momentry lapse of concentration etc. then it needs to be taken into account we are all human and we make mistakes.. There is a difference between BLATENT flouting of highway laws and a mistake.

The Zohan

If it toughens up the law so POS's like this do not get off with fines and points and pathetic bans then i will be happy.

taken from
Killer motorists face new sentencing guidelines - Yahoo! News UK

"The new offence was introduced after a number of cases raised concerns about lenient sentences.

In 2004, 48-year-old lorry-driver William Ishani was fined just 1,000 pounds and banned for 12 months for causing the death of a family of four.

Ishani was cleared of four counts of causing death by dangerous driving, but was convicted of careless driving.

And in May 2000, 24-year-old motorist Waqas Ahmed was fined 400 pounds and given six penalty points on his driving license after two people died when he reversed up the M25 in the dark without lights."

LG John

Don't know what you are moaning for! This new law will mean that many, many nice people with not a bad bone in their body will make one careless mistake and spend years in jail for it. Hell, they don't even have to drive dangerously now - just a little bit of carelessness (we ALL do it with varying degrees of regularity) and you are behind bars.

There is no such thing as an accident.

Blame culture, blame culture, blame culture.....

Diesel

Cool tin of Kenco and a hug in the post

D

Diesel

We all make mistakes that affect us only as individuals - it's how we are programmed and they are (or were) generally called accidents.

Just watch You've Been Framed! That's humans for you, not robots!

D

PS I slipped down the stairs yesterday and hurt my @rse - who do I blame? The carpet maker or my shoemaker?

LG John

Go for the jugular - blame that I. Newton fella

Diesel