David Lock

OK - big fuss in UK about extending period a terrorist suspect can be kept in jail before he is charged.

But in Italy 3 people are suspects in a rape/murder case and judge looks at evidence and says they can be kept in jail for up to a year while police carry on with investigations. No one seems to bat an eyelid.

So have I got my facts wrong or shouldn't I be comparing these cases? dl

SJ_Skyline

You're comparing chalk with cheese. In Italy they have gone before a judge with evidence and the judge has ruled that they can be detained for x days while the police investigate. The 28 day mularky in the UK is about the police deataining people for a period of days without having to take them before a judge with evidence to get an extention.

Hope that helps

David Lock

I thought that in the UK if there is go to be anything longer than 28 days then it would go before a judge? But it's quite likely I got that wrong too!! d


Edit to add quote from Home Secretary "Ms Smith is also discussing safeguards for suspects held without charge, including weekly reviews by judges of all cases"

PeteBrant

Not one person since the period was extended to 28 days has required to be used. Yet we are supposed towallow that 56 days is now needed?

Lord West said on radio 4 this morning he was not convinced of the need to extend the 28 day period. Then went in to Downing street, and said he was now convinced and the he had made a mistake this morning. Security minister my ****, he folded under pressure in 5 minutes.

We have the longest period of time that a suspected terrorist can be held without charge anywhere in the western world.

It is without doubt one of the most draconian and disgraceful laws that has gotten through parliament during the last parliament.

PeteBrant

Do you have a link to the italian story?

David Lock

I am sure I can find one. It was that British girl whose female flat mate invited her boyfriend and some weirdo bar owner to come over, have some drugs and some "fun". Headline stuff in many papers.


Here is story but I don't think it mentions suspects being thrown into pokey for up to 12 months. Woman 'confesses role' in British student's murder in Perugia - Times Online

Here is the 12 month in jail link

Suspects in Meredith Kercher murder case face year in jail after judge's ruling - Times Online

PeteBrant

Blimey. That's outrageous.

bugeyeandy

Isn't that just similar to our remand system? Enough evidence to lock em up awaiting trial?

David Lock

I don't know. But aren't those guys/gals charged before being held on remand? dl

Reality

Think there was one guy who was held for 28 days.

Let's face it Ian Blair and his hopeless band of ****** would need 4 fooking years to build a case against Hitler - useless hoores

That's why they took to shooting anyone with a pasty face - but they had to stop that after one !

Leslie

I agree completely.

Les

David Lock

So going back to my original post. It seems OK for Italian authorities to put 3 people in jail for up to a year as suspects for a crime of killing one person but in UK all hell breaks loose when a terrorist suspect who may be planning to kill a tube load of passengers is put in jail for 2 months? dl

Brendan Hughes

David, I haven't looked into it in detail but I imagine that there's some problem when comparing the UK and continental legal systems - as above, chalk and cheese. We have adversarial, they have inquisitorial, etc etc. Our judges will first actually meet the suspects at the final trial (six months or a year later), theirs will probably meet them barely 24h after the arrest. Our judges are only allowed to look at certain evidence which would stand up in court (eg presented by prosecution, not ripped apart by defence), theirs are permitted to take into account any soft evidence, rumours, hearsay, et al.

(I should know all this but I was never really interested in the procedural aspects )

David Lock

OK Brendan. I hear what you are saying but irrespective of the legal differences the implications for the suspects seem to be quite different. Up to12 months in Italy before being formally charged but 2 months in UK is a no-no. You seem to be saying that in Europe the suspects are more likely to be guilty?? dl

Brendan Hughes

AIUI it's to do with supervision of the suspects by the independent judiciary, rather than just the police. Although it takes longer to formally charge them, perhaps yes, if the investigating judge is convinced he's on the right lines, the formal moment of charging is not so important.

I am open to all kinds of correction though, I haven't even opened the links above . All I know is that there are very basic issues involved which means that comparisons should be done with extreme caution.

EvilBevel

I may be wrong, but I think the key issue here is that it is the police (executive power) that can decide on the detention, whereas this should normally be the domain of the judiciary powers.

David Lock

The whole thing seems to be a mess And I though Europe was supposed to be singing from the same hymn sheet

So in Italy the judiciary decide whether to keep suspects in jail after initial police arrest.

In UK it seems likely that terror suspects will have a judicial review after 28 days if this time is to be extended although suspects won't know (or at least won't be told) why they are in pokey in the first place.

But of course the whole Europe thing is overshadowed by Guantanamo where a suspect is slung into prison for many years and subject to very rough treatment very possibly because he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My personal view is that in the UK 28 days is quite enough but maybe some evidence that is not now allowed in court can be used.

dl

Brendan Hughes

Are you kidding? Have you seen the fuss in the UK press about Brussels' increased (yet still incredibly limited) powers in the field of justice and home affairs?

David Lock

Must have missed that bit - I was distracted by the brothels in Portugal story

Oh and btw I am one of the anti-Europe brigade which influences my comments

EvilBevel

Same hymn sheet, yeah right!

It's the same in Belgium: suspects must go before a judge (raadkamer) asap, and they can decide if it is deemed necessary to keep the suspect in prison. This has to be repeated every x months until the actual trial.

The difference may come from the fact that many EU countries use Napoleontic law, while you folk use Common law. (mind you, I'm not an expert by far on this)

However, I found this on the Home Office website:

Extending police powers to detain suspects after arrest for up to 28 days (though periods of more than two days must be approved by a judicial authority)

Anyway, 28 days may not seem much for a terrorist, but is no fun when you are just innocent. It's always a balance between getting the bad guys off the streets vs protecting the law abiding citizen. Since 9/11, the balance is swinging in the direction of the first.

And yes, Camp Delta and the CIA flights to countries like Morocco etc. aren't exactly confidence inspiring.