Mandela Statue - Paliament Sq
29 August 2007, 11:33 AM
#1
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Mandela Statue - Paliament Sq
What next, one of Martin McGuiness or Osama Bin Laden
Brown is all over him, All seems a little sycophantic to me, short memories for some...
Brown is all over him, All seems a little sycophantic to me, short memories for some...
29 August 2007, 11:49 AM
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29 August 2007, 11:49 AM
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29 August 2007, 11:49 AM
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Nelson Mandella - prime example one man's freedom fighter being another man's terrorist.
I suggest they do commission a statue of Osama and once complete invite him to do the honours at the opening ceremony, maybe that way we can catch him.
I suggest they do commission a statue of Osama and once complete invite him to do the honours at the opening ceremony, maybe that way we can catch him.
29 August 2007, 11:50 AM
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29 August 2007, 11:52 AM
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I can understand the statue being in South Africa, but having it in London is absolutely ludicrous 
IMO.
All he ever did for the UK is get Alan Titchmarsh and Charlie Wobblyboobsgingergardner to leave the country for a few weeks to do up his garden for him
IMO.All he ever did for the UK is get Alan Titchmarsh and Charlie Wobblyboobsgingergardner to leave the country for a few weeks to do up his garden for him
29 August 2007, 11:53 AM
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29 August 2007, 11:54 AM
#13
And I'm sure many South African Police Officers would rather go back to the days of aparthied when they didn't have to carry Uzi's in their footwells in case they get a stoppage on their assault rifles.
29 August 2007, 11:54 AM
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Mandela started out as a non-violent activist. Only after years of seeing the Government kill indiscriminantly did he decide to fight fire with fire.
I'm not saying it's right, but it is understandable.
29 August 2007, 11:56 AM
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Of course it's not perfect over in SA. But you aren't seriously suggesting the country should return to Aparthied, are you?
29 August 2007, 12:03 PM
#17
It simply highlights that people are very selective over their view on events depending on which side of the fence they want to believe.
In the case of SA, and Mandela, they are very selective about how they view Mandela's activties, the state of aparthied SA, and the state of post-aparthied SA.
Mandela is hardly the Dali Lama.
29 August 2007, 12:07 PM
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I do think Parliament Square should be kept for British heroes. William Wilberforce would be more appropriate.
======
Edit to correct a wrong assumption:
I got it wrong in that I thought that is was just UK citizens that were so honoured. But I see ***** is there and perhaps Lincoln (?) although his picture is not included in this:
Statues - Parliament Square
===========
======
Edit to correct a wrong assumption:
I got it wrong in that I thought that is was just UK citizens that were so honoured. But I see ***** is there and perhaps Lincoln (?) although his picture is not included in this:
Statues - Parliament Square
===========
Last edited by David Lock; 30 August 2007 at 10:25 AM.
29 August 2007, 12:10 PM
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Not in my expereince. I am happy to be pointed to any Repulicans that compare The Northern Ireland situation to Aparthied South Africa.
There isn't much to be selective about with regards to Aparthied to be honest. It was utterly evil.
Mandela was instrumental in bringing about it's end, and for that he is rightly applauded.
It simply highlights that people are very selective over their view on events depending on which side of the fence they want to believe.
In the case of SA, and Mandela, they are very selective about how they view Mandela's activties, the state of aparthied SA, and the state of post-aparthied SA.
Mandela is hardly the Dali Lama.
In the case of SA, and Mandela, they are very selective about how they view Mandela's activties, the state of aparthied SA, and the state of post-aparthied SA.
Mandela is hardly the Dali Lama.
Mandela was instrumental in bringing about it's end, and for that he is rightly applauded.
Last edited by PeteBrant; 29 August 2007 at 12:14 PM.
29 August 2007, 12:13 PM
#20
Wasn't it proven that the group that Nelson mandela was once commander in chief of provided aid to the lockerbie bombers Then Nelson mandela visited Britain in 2002 campaigning for the bomber to be allowed to be transferred to a Muslim jail. That visit went down like A lead ballon in the town of lockerbie.
Then Nelson mandela visited Britain in 2002 campaigning for the bomber to be allowed to be transferred to a Muslim jail. That visit went down like A lead ballon in the town of lockerbie.
29 August 2007, 12:18 PM
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Wasn't it proven that the group that Nelson mandela was once commander in chief of provided aid to the lockerbie bombers Then Nelson mandela visited Britain in 2002 campaigning for the bomber to be allowed to be transferred to a Muslim jail. That visit went down like A lead ballon in the town of lockerbie.
Then Nelson mandela visited Britain in 2002 campaigning for the bomber to be allowed to be transferred to a Muslim jail. That visit went down like A lead ballon in the town of lockerbie.But ,yes, he did suggest that Megrahi be allowed to be transfered to a western-freindly Muslim country. Somewhat incorrectly I feel, but not sure it should be like a noose round his neck.
29 August 2007, 12:36 PM
#23
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Lest we forget dear old Winnie and the murders she commited whilst still married to him, we will never know if he was aware of her plans or gave his consent.
I agree with the above it should be the reserve of the British.
As for Brown's fawning "Mr Brown hailed Mr Mandela as the "greatest and most courageous leader of our generation".
Do me a favour
I agree with the above it should be the reserve of the British.
As for Brown's fawning "Mr Brown hailed Mr Mandela as the "greatest and most courageous leader of our generation".
Do me a favour
29 August 2007, 12:37 PM
#24
Well Mandela brokered the deal that meant Lybia released the two men for trial in the first place.
But ,yes, he did suggest that Megrahi be allowed to be transfered to a western-freindly Muslim country. Somewhat incorrectly I feel, but not sure it should be like a noose round his neck.
But ,yes, he did suggest that Megrahi be allowed to be transfered to a western-freindly Muslim country. Somewhat incorrectly I feel, but not sure it should be like a noose round his neck.
Just hope the Scots know where to vote next time.
29 August 2007, 01:08 PM
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Jeez, this place is further right than the Third Reich sometimes.
Get some perspective and maybe read up a little on what apartheid in South Africa was really like and then see if you can find it in your hearts to compare Nelson Mandela to Osama Bin Laden and Martin McGuiness. You know there is a world outside of UK middle class suburbia and a lot of it isn't very pleasant.
This place is unbelievable sometimes.
Get some perspective and maybe read up a little on what apartheid in South Africa was really like and then see if you can find it in your hearts to compare Nelson Mandela to Osama Bin Laden and Martin McGuiness. You know there is a world outside of UK middle class suburbia and a lot of it isn't very pleasant.
This place is unbelievable sometimes.
29 August 2007, 01:25 PM
#27
Come on!
The ANC purposfully targetted civillians with bombs, primarily in resturants. Thoughout the 1980's the ANC was engaged in a violent campaign against the South African Civillian population, primarily blowing those civillians up because they were White. Attacks against Government locations were generally timed to occur at the height of rush-hour in order to ensure maximum civillian casualties. It was only after the fall of the Soviet Union and the subsequent drying up of the ANC's bank accounts that they actually bothered to sit around a table.
Nothing can justify the indiscriminate targetting and murder of civillians, or are you suggesting that the deaths of black South Africans at the hands of the SA Government were somehow more important than the deaths of white South Africans at the hands of the ANC? Or that the civillian South Africans somehow deserved it because of their Government?
However you want to paint it, Mandela was a senior member of an organisation that planned, supported and conducted terrorist attacks which killed and maimed 100's of innocent civillians.
The ANC purposfully targetted civillians with bombs, primarily in resturants. Thoughout the 1980's the ANC was engaged in a violent campaign against the South African Civillian population, primarily blowing those civillians up because they were White. Attacks against Government locations were generally timed to occur at the height of rush-hour in order to ensure maximum civillian casualties. It was only after the fall of the Soviet Union and the subsequent drying up of the ANC's bank accounts that they actually bothered to sit around a table.
Nothing can justify the indiscriminate targetting and murder of civillians, or are you suggesting that the deaths of black South Africans at the hands of the SA Government were somehow more important than the deaths of white South Africans at the hands of the ANC? Or that the civillian South Africans somehow deserved it because of their Government?
However you want to paint it, Mandela was a senior member of an organisation that planned, supported and conducted terrorist attacks which killed and maimed 100's of innocent civillians.
Last edited by Prasius; 29 August 2007 at 01:28 PM.
29 August 2007, 01:32 PM
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One man's extremist nutter is anothers freedom fighter...... I like Nelson, and he's a positive influence on people of today so I'm willing to ignore his past!..
29 August 2007, 01:47 PM
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Come on!
The ANC purposfully targetted civillians with bombs, primarily in resturants. Thoughout the 1980's the ANC was engaged in a violent campaign against the South African Civillian population, primarily blowing those civillians up because they were White. Attacks against Government locations were generally timed to occur at the height of rush-hour in order to ensure maximum civillian casualties. It was only after the fall of the Soviet Union and the subsequent drying up of the ANC's bank accounts that they actually bothered to sit around a table.
Nothing can justify the indiscriminate targetting and murder of civillians, or are you suggesting that the deaths of black South Africans at the hands of the SA Government were somehow more important than the deaths of white South Africans at the hands of the ANC? Or that the civillian South Africans somehow deserved it because of their Government?
However you want to paint it, Mandela was a senior member of an organisation that planned, supported and conducted terrorist attacks which killed and maimed 100's of innocent civillians.
The ANC purposfully targetted civillians with bombs, primarily in resturants. Thoughout the 1980's the ANC was engaged in a violent campaign against the South African Civillian population, primarily blowing those civillians up because they were White. Attacks against Government locations were generally timed to occur at the height of rush-hour in order to ensure maximum civillian casualties. It was only after the fall of the Soviet Union and the subsequent drying up of the ANC's bank accounts that they actually bothered to sit around a table.
Nothing can justify the indiscriminate targetting and murder of civillians, or are you suggesting that the deaths of black South Africans at the hands of the SA Government were somehow more important than the deaths of white South Africans at the hands of the ANC? Or that the civillian South Africans somehow deserved it because of their Government?
However you want to paint it, Mandela was a senior member of an organisation that planned, supported and conducted terrorist attacks which killed and maimed 100's of innocent civillians.
He was no position to co-ordinate a tea party, let alone ceoncerted attacks.
Of course the ANC did some dreadful things - Mandela did some dreadful things.
I am not saying one life is worth more than another, of course it isn't.
But the fight against Aparthied is like the fight against **** Germany - Morally justified.
29 August 2007, 01:57 PM
#30
So purposefully targetting civillians in order to cause maximum fatalities is morally justified?
The difference between carpet bombing industrial towns and blowing up a Wimpy resturant seems pretty clear cut without any "moral" ambiguity to me.
Of course I'm leaving out the systematic murder of blacks by the ANC who refused to take part in boycotts and strikes.... morally justified as well?
Mandela being in prision or not seems irrelevant to me - he was still associated with the organisation and was happy to be so. That makes him as guilty as anyone else involved in the atrocities that happend in my opinion.
Both sides did some terrible things - but to glorify and turn Mandela into some hero figure when he is associated with some truely horrific attacks against innocent people seems pretty hypocritical to me.
The difference between carpet bombing industrial towns and blowing up a Wimpy resturant seems pretty clear cut without any "moral" ambiguity to me.
Of course I'm leaving out the systematic murder of blacks by the ANC who refused to take part in boycotts and strikes.... morally justified as well?
Mandela being in prision or not seems irrelevant to me - he was still associated with the organisation and was happy to be so. That makes him as guilty as anyone else involved in the atrocities that happend in my opinion.
Both sides did some terrible things - but to glorify and turn Mandela into some hero figure when he is associated with some truely horrific attacks against innocent people seems pretty hypocritical to me.