Moonloops

Saw what I think were two Apache helicopers flying in formation heading North East today..

Blimey they seemed big (unless there are other 'copters with radomes?)

maybe they were ferrying traffic wardens around

Janspeed

iTrader: (1)

prolly EH101s

Moonloops

Never seen a Merlin with a radome mounted above the rotors?

It was murky and overcast so didn't get a real good look.

Guinness

iTrader: (1)

I saw them about 3pm flying over ealing towards uxbridge...Nice sight

Moonloops

Was about 1.30 / 2pm max - must have been more than one flight going on..

andythejock01wrx

Did you spot the Iranian gunboats in the Thames that they were heading for ?

Janspeed

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Well if you did not get a good look, then you dont know!

Moonloops

Sure, one deffo had a radome, just looked too big for apache

Janspeed

iTrader: (1)

Then it might a EH101, escorted maybe, even.

Volks

Without sounding like too much of a geek, the Merlin is part of the SH (Support Helicopter) section of JHC (Joint Helicopter Command) and as such is not equipped with a mast mounted radome.

The Apache is AH (Attack Helicopter) and many, although not all, have a mast mounted radome fitted.

The Apache is a huge aircraft, not quite as large as Merlin but vastly bigger than Lynx and slightly bigger than Seaking.

astraboy

All British Army Apaches are the Longbow varient and will have the radome.
It might have been an american one, but the brit is more likely.
kick *** aircraft
astraboy.

CrisPDuk

When we went to collect MrsD's car from down south a couple of years ago we saw a pair of Apaches buzzing about over the A34 near Newbury, I think it was about the time ours where finally being rendered airworthy after the procurement fiasco I too was amazed at how big they were

Their sheer size is probably partly why the Iraqis are finding them so much easier to perforate than the AH-1s the Marines are using

CrisPDuk

PS: Personally I'd say it's pretty hard not to tell the difference between an Apache and a Merlin myself, even in bad weather I mean an Apache is a big piece of kit, but the Merlin is fecking Huge

Trout

iTrader: (1)

They were still in Iranian waters I will have you know

Volks

Not all carry the radome.

CrisPDuk

They all came fitted with them

the MOD probably decided that if they take half of them off, they don't have to maintain them

Tidgy

did it look like this?

Volks

OK, the radome is used for target identification and prioritisation. One longbow WAH-64 can "control" a number of non-longbow WAH-64 aircraft.

Quite why the MoD bought all the aircraft longbow equipped is baffling. I live very close to the Apache training centre in Hampshire and play footy with an Apache instructor.

Anyway, not all fly with the radome fitted and, in the UK at least, not all fly with the nose mounted chain gun installed.

CrisPDuk

I know in theory you only need one Radome to cover several aircraft, but, if the chopper so equipped is the first to get it's tail blown away by the rebels with the .50" guns (which is happening to the US Army Apaches more often than they'd care to admit), the rest of the flight is pretty much blind.

I bet even in Iraq the Apaches with the chain gun fitted don't carry a full ammunition load. After all that would encourage the pilots to waste bullets









For those who aren't aware, 'soldiers wasting bullets' was the primary reason behind the government's refusal to permit the issue of machine guns on the Western Front during WW1

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

It was also the reason that we never had a rifle capable of firing automatic until the SA80 (the FN FAL could fire auto, but apparently its a pain in the **** - the SLR had the 'feature' removed). There are still many people in the Armed Forces who have never fired the SA80 automatic with live rounds.

As for the Apache - I've never seen an operational unit flying a WAH without a radome or a chain gun. And I've seen LOTS of them.

Moonloops

Just to clarify the with/without radome argument, the second 'copter didn't have the radome.

I do think now that they where apache's as I never realised how big they were.

I only caught a glimpse, as was very overcast and raining so was hard to get a good spot of what there were.

Bing_2004

The British Apache's are 15 metres long and 5.4 m high so they are very big compared to most civilian helicopters. All british AH that are in service have the FCR (domes) and Guns fitted.

Leslie

Is that why the defence ministry bought second rate bullets for our present troops-the one which used to jam the guns!

Les

swampster

iTrader: (1)

it wasn't the bullets that jammed the guns, well actually it was, but they generally weren't the cause.. that was simply down to the poor design of the SA80. It has been vastly improved however by a H&K overhaul which included a redesign of many of the component parts but it's still not perfect. Although with it's prior poor reputation for reliability it wouldn't have mattered what they did to it, it was never going to regain many fans.

Although I have to say, when treated right and maintained properly it is a very good weapon. I've fired thousands of rounds with both the SA80 and the SLR (amongst other things) and realistically speaking the SA80 was no more or less reliable than it's predecessor in my experience.

astraboy

My thoughts exactly, I cant understand why weapons are bought from the best in the business but then fire them with happy shopper bullets!
Buy from Oerliken, it cant be difficult!
astraboy.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

Its rare to hear someone speaking up for the SA80. As a non forces member, I am glad to hear that the H&K overhaul has indeed made the weapon useful.

It is still off the Nato approved list right?

Just out of interest, are there any other Western Rifles that would be more suitable. I never did understand why we tried to make one from scratch for ourselves rather than just buying one in.

richie001

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american m16

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

lol, i should have guessed. Politically I can see why that one is a hard sell. Still, if ours is better than all the others (or as good) then thats not too bad I suppose.

swampster

iTrader: (1)

The reasons were two fold for opting for the SA80, one was political and the other practical. The political aspect was simply a UK industry protectionist issue. The practicality aspect came from the requirement of a lightweight (and short) weapon that was supposedly suitable in all situations, but in particular a feature that the SLR and standard M16 were simply not that practical for due to their length. That was house clearing, a requirement born out of experience in NI. Running through doors with a 3 foot long rifle can cause some problems. There was simply nothing else available at the time which was such an all round weapon.

Of course there was the M16 carbine, but this weapon is a bit specialised.. they wanted something (as with most UK contracts) that could supposedly cater for all roles.

Obviously since initial development to procurement (again as is the case with most UK contracts - see Eurofighter Typhoon as another example) technology had moved on and there were alternatives by this point, however with so much cash and time spent on the SA80 it was a case of being commited and not losing face.

Not sure if it's still off the NATO approved list, but that means diddly anyway.. consider that the US has such control or influence over most things NATO, again protectionism inevitably creeps in, in this case in favour of their own hardware.

With regards to ammunition, the SA80 uses the standard 5.56 NATO ball round (again a US determined calibre, we previously stuck with the 7.62 round), which is the same as the M16's (5.56). The SA80 can even accept an M16 magazine, not entirely sure if that is the still case since the H&K revamp, as I know the magazine and it's retaining mechanism was one of the components upgraded.

It might not be a particularly lightweight weapon compared to more modern technology, but at it's introduction it certainly was.. being much lighter than the SLR. Even so, due to the "bullpup" design it made it an extremely easy weapon to handle and fire, it was very well balanced and coupled with the very minimal recoil it was very accurate in the right hands.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

SA80 A2 = Great weapon. If only it didn't weigh so bloody much.

The Demarco C8 (Canadian produced version of the Colt M4 carbine [short]) which is in British service with a few units is an absolutely fantastic weapon however, accurate even with an Ironsight [easily on par with the SA80 in operational conditions], light, reliable, and just a loverly weapon to fire. [This being personal opinion after my own use of the weapon].

The M16 is a bit poo to be honest (imo).

Oh, and swampster, the SA80A2 can still use M16 magazines. I was demo'ing one to some US Marines and rather easily impressed them by doing exactly that.

I will stop encouraging this thread off-topic now.