Norman D. Landing

A mate at work is constantly going on about his University education and the fact that I lack one makes him somehow superior. Mostly in jest (as I keep pointing out, my lack of a University education doesn't seem to prohibit me from doing the same job as he does - Financial I.T and doing it better! ).

Just wondered how much regard is given to a Univeristy education these days. I understand that it's a simple requirement for certain professions (Doctor/Solicitor/etc) but really, what can a Degree get you that leaving school at 16 and working hard for 5 years can't? (Other than pissed quite often and a lot of lie-ins)

PS I've been in various I.T roles for 17 years (All tech. support types) and started on a Y.T.S, a fact that I'm quite proud of.

nuttychick

I have a Higher National Diploma but it hasn't helped me get a job and its nothing to do with what I do now!

I think a few years of hard work proves you as well as any university piece of paper (unless your a doctor or vet...)

SJ_Skyline

Emotive subject. Those that have degrees and that are doing well will say they are worth doing. Those without them that are doing well will say they are a waste of time.

I think your "PS" answers part of your question. IMHO, without the degree you will get only so far and likewise, you'll only get so far without an MBA. It's not just the degree but also the class of degree and in some organisations the university you attended.

When I was in my final year I attended a number of "milk round interviews". One of these was with Chase Manhattan, I discovered that I was the only one there who was not Oxbridge: seriously intimidating and if I had got the job I wouldn't have got very far - based on my university.

That said, there are plenty of organisations out there that are pure meritocracies where the colour (or absence) of your tie doesn't matter: Virgin for example.

TelBoy

It *was* worth something, definitely.



Anyone see University Challenge last night? What a finish!

cottonfoo

I simply could not stand to work somewhere where it was deemed more important to have a good background (not just academic) than how good I was at my job. I guess I'm lucky, I don't have a degree so couldn't ever get a boring, repetitive, restrictive, uncreative high-paid, high-stress, on-call IT job in a bank worrying about cron jobs and writing shell scripts

LG John

I don't think it means sh*t these days but it at the very least gives you something of a fallback. My mates that didn't go to university are all better paid that me currently and I'll be knocking on 29 soon! I must admit it's something I regret a little as I feel I could have bettered myself out there in the real world than behind the books.

KiwiGTI

IT jobs are a bit different though, essentially courses in IT are almost "IT History" courses, apart from perhaps establishing basic programming principles and things like UML they don't really apply to the industry.

I mean how many university degress teach you about SAP, Weblogic, SANs, Virtualisation etc.

In addition to that the industry is very modern, so anyone aged over 45 with an computer science degree is likely to be bearded and wear sandals.

Norman D. Landing

<looks around and wonders who's in my office with an alias of cottonfoo >

I dont class my job as boring, repetetive, restrictive or uncreative, although I do write the odd cron job/shell script, am usually stressed and regularly on-call.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

It's about fitness for purpose- varies enormously between subject matters and associated career pathways.

Brandishing a piece of paper that has no relevance to the direction you take in life is of little use from a career perspective.

BUT, not everyone studies a degree for career purposes; some do it for the pleasure of learning.

Some jobs require the professional/subject based knowledge fostered by a degree, in which case they're essential.

Some jobs stipulate that applicants should have a degree as they're much more likley to have the transferable/interpersonal skills required of the position. However, this is usually with the caveat that people with relevant prev work experience may also be considered, so it's an advantage to hold a degree, but not an assurance of a job offer over someone with a few years relevant work experience under their belt.

For some jobs a degreee opens promotional doors that would othewise been closed. Some companies only want highly qualified staff as their leaders -sometimes because that's what the highest positions requires, somtimes for corporate show.

Like many things in life, when I hear someone questioning the value of something I tend to think:

When you've walked the walk, THEN you can talk the talk!

ns04

SJ_Skyline

After that comment I've also had a quick look around to see if KiwiGTI is in my office!

cottonfoo

Heh, well, the problem for me would be that I like to use bleading-edge technology creatively and for obvious reasons a bank cannot allow that, so I personally would get bored. My statements were tongue in cheek before anyone comes down on me like a ton of bricks like yesterday

RichWalk

not when you see what it takes at A & GCSE level to get on a degree course Its also a percentage game, when I did mine there was something like 6-8% of the population taking Uni courses, now the figure is way higher 30%+ from memory, add the fact that Bkue Chip Companies are now setting their own exams for top Oxbridge graduates and you have to say the system has been diluted.

David Lock

The fact is that people with degrees earn on average more than those without one. The devil is in the detail of course. A lab assistant with a science degree could well be on 15k whilst his barrow boy turned city trader mate could be on £100k!

TelBoy

Very few "barrow boy" traders now, David, FYI.

Norman D. Landing

Thats very interesting. My employer employs a 'Rapid Graduate' scheme whereby Post Grads. are fast-tracked through the organisation, generally starting at the 'Project Leader' stage and completely missing the part where you need to think for yourself rather than perform an organisational role.

On the flip side, Post Grads. who join in a technical capacity are the ones who think that because they have a computer science degree are they are better qualified and simply better AT the job that I've been doing for more than four times the amount of time it took them to get their Degree.

It's a funny old world.

OllyK

It can open the door, that's for sure. I started getting interested in IT in my early twenties after doing a Chemistry and Business degree. I took on responsibility for application development and sysadmin within the company I worked for. I looked to move elsewhere in IT, but the lack of wider experience or a formal qualification meant that roles weren't forthcoming. I went back to Uni, got a Computer Science degree and promptly walked in to a consultancy role. I now manage a team of consultants. Without the degree I wasn't going anywhere without taking a major cut in salarly and starting over. If you compare 2 people who have been on a common career path, 1 that worked up from the start and the other who had a degree, I suspect by early 30's they will be in equivalent roles. Where it seems to make a difference is if you want to significantly change direction and some point.

Robert Rosario

Is that still true these days?

Am not having a pop at you for your comments, but as others have mentioned with a degree qualification becoming commonplace, diluted and seemingly by some "ten a penny", surely it is not automatically so that anybody say in their thirties with a degree would be earning more than somebody of a similar age without one?

For people in their forties or fifties though it may be a different story.

Personally, I would not recommend it to anybody these days. Unless you are Oxford or Cambridge bound, I would advise an 18 year old to get out to work.

Drunken Bungle Whore

My degree (Geology) has naff all to do with what I do now - but it was fun and I enjoyed it! Also, there's no arguing that rightly or wrongly, having a degree opens doors for you. No, I don't think it's fair - especially seeing the standard of graduates these days (but that's a whole different disucssion! )

My post grad qualifications are what helps me get on in my profession now. I head up a relatively large department within a large-ish (>2500 people) organisation and I wouldn't have got my nose through the door without my post grad professional qualifications.

SlimJ_2005

I've gone back to studying as a Mature Student (27) as I didnt do a degree after leaving college, I regretted it in someways but then looked at friends who also regretted doing the degree as they didnt do as well as they could've done (2:2 or less). Now I've gone back with a good level of motivation and I want to succeed, I want to look back and think I did the best I could, I'm in my 2nd year and doing very well and have been told I should get a 1st class honours if I continue working hard.

Now I look at others in our group and see they don't have any motivation to do work (hey I was like that when I was 19!), they don't care as long as they pass the degree, now I think thats pointless and a pass is worthless. I have to laugh when I've completed an assignment a week early and see others only just starting, and panicing, then hoping for an extension... god there in for a shock when they get into the 'real' world!

I think degrees are pretty worthless if you dont put the effort in, put the effort in and get a high grade and I think it does benefit you in the long run.

David Lock

Have a pop by all means

I suspect Telboy is correct about less "barrow boys" about although I certainly knew a few, but a while back.

The other comment about average earnings I think still holds water as I read this several times in the sales blurb given out by unis when trying to attract students although, of course, they had their own agendas.

My daughter goes to uni but may not use her degree (psychology) as such but my boy was offered a place but turned it down and just plays his guitar. I think they both did the right thing as it happens.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

TBH I have very little knowledge of the IT industry. As a general comment the "walk the walk comment" can apply equally to the practical experience and academic credentials sides. One or the other may be important depending on the job at hand and the level of training involved, they may be interchangeable, they may not. At prima facie, the situation you describe does not sound ideal.

It does vary enormously depending on the type of degree you take and the relationship with the career though. In my profession, you simply need the qualifications to be able to do the job, so these kinds of arguments are a bit redundant.

DCI Gene Hunt

I'm doing my first masters at the moment, never bothered before, left school at 16 straight into work and never looked back. But the problem is demonstrating competency in your chosen field or function, and not having a Dip or MSc after your name affects your credibility so for me its a sure fire way to provide credibility as well as increase that all important salary

cottonfoo

I've been considering doing an OU degree, totally unrelated to my job, just for the fun of it. Learning new stuff is good fun for a start.

TelBoy

OU degrees are great in theory, but they're a bit like monthly credit arrangements - you can't wait till they're over and done with! Make sure you can continue to devote the necessary time to an OU degree before you start.

cottonfoo

Yep I'm aware, my best mate has spent the past three years doing his maths OU degree and it really impacted the amount of time he could go biking at weekends

ScoobyDoo555

Working in Education, I can honestly say that I'm not sure!!

Yes, it is worth *something* over not being qualified, but, the big problem is that as a nation, we are rapidly becoming a race of Managers. not enough do-ers out there. Now Management is fine, as long as you've got the experience to back it up, but coming straight out of Uni, doesn't mean a good manager you are.

Plus, as there are SO many Degrees out there, the qualification has be devalued somewhat. Vocational qualifications are on the up. However, it does kind of depend on the job market you're going in to.

I'm a big fan of Vocational Qualifications, as they are the equivalent to higher qualifications, but actually train you, rather than going down the Degree route, which tbh, could be perceived more so as a Social experience!

Dan

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

I've never trusted those statistics to be honest. Its obvious that a bunch of dole queue losers are going to drag the results down for those of us without degrees.

As far as my group of friends go, there is almost a 50/50 split of those with, and those without degrees (although a couple of us now have HNDs), and the difference in our respective salaries is negligable. That taken into account with student debt, our few years extra salary, pension contributions and the like - I'm doubtful of there being that much difference. I will add however that none of them with degrees have what I consider professional degrees - medical doctor, vet, chartered engineer.....

A degree from a prestige university I think is very worthwhile if you have the capacity for it (a close female friend of mine is doing an MEng at Cambridge) and I have no doubt this will give her a massive advantage in her choosen field - But some random humanities degree from a Polytechnic? Yippee.. Not being funny but that would be hardly straining my academic capacity. Snobbery prehaps - but I've seen the work that goes into a real degree.

KiwiGTI

The OU is actually pretty well respected, and ranks up there with the better universities in the UK.

I realistically can't see how I'd ever increase my salary (IT contractors will know what I mean ) so can't see the point in getting additional qualifications.

cottonfoo

You may not increase yours, but you could perhaps get someone else on board, sell their time through your company, and cream a bit off