scoobynutta555

Is there really an alternative to the Labour party? I follow politics in this country quite closely and have studied it at college. I cannot remember a time though when I've felt as disillusioned and apathetic than I do now about the whole thing.

In 1997 I was genuinely happy that Blair had soundly beaten the hapless and inept Major government. Blair's first term was in the main quite beneficial to the country. However, his second and third term have been disasterous. Under his leadership we've seen this country slide into a state where most people want to leave. Massive increase in taxes, a wasteful public sector, a pension raid, the closing of final salary pensions, nothing short of a disasterous foreign policy, the mass increase in the police state, an obsession with ID cards to name just a few things.

I feel something I thought I'd never feel at college, a longing for a strong Conservative party. Do we have any party than can challenge Labour though? No! The Tories have raced into the centre ground, in fact IMHO they are more left wing than Labour! The ridiculous leanings and sound bites by Cameron defy belief, 'Hug a hoodie', 'Love a lout' and the pursuit of a love in with Polly Toynbee. This party are an absolute joke. What happened to right wing traditional policies? If I was a lifelong Tory I'd be going ballistic. I can only imagine there hasn't been more widespread criticism of Cameron by Tories due to the fact they see him as a future PM. I would bet that if he held the view of a traditional Tory he'd reap much more benefit than he is currently getting. It takes an asian woman to put across her non spin views of a Tory future. Pretti Patel has just been elected to fight for a safe Tory seat at the next election. She has advocated a return to traditional tory policies including never joining the Euro etc. She will be a future rising star of this sell-out party.

I however think Cameroon would be Blair-lite, a diluted version of president Tony. Given the nonsense he's spouted thus far he'll be even worse for the country.

Now, Brown the dour Scot. Jesus, who wants this guy in charge. Strikes me as a conniver and a grudge bearing oaf.

I shan't bother with the Liberal party, nobody else does. Fancy voting in a pensioner who's about as in touch with life as Michael Jackson.

So what are we left with? Not much I'm afraid. Until there's a strong properly positioned Tory party we're going to be left with policies and government that looks after themselves and not the country whichever party it is.

Leslie

Could not put it better myself.

Les

David Lock

Perhaps Blair was the Tory you were looking for but he got sidetracked and, trying to do a "Falklands", made a distastrous foray into Iraq?

Being friendly with the USA is probably sensible - the trouble is they have such an arsehole running the place.

I don't like Cameron. Too clever by half for me and no real background. Eton - big effing deal, what does he know about ordinary people? I'd prefer Hague but with a big anti-European outlook. Just my euro's worth. dl

scoobynutta555

Initially there was a sense of hope with a leader in Blair. He was a breath of fresh air compared with Major. Yes he would have had much more support if it wasn't for Iraq. Even much of the security legislation which has passed into law over the past few years have been on the back of national security, a direct result of Iraq and Afghanistan. I cannot imagine we'd have homegrown suicide bombers blowing themselves up over here if it wasn't for our foreign policy. Nor could the excuse of national security be used in justification for these intrusive laws and practices.

Then there's the cost of the whole thing. Billions and billions of our money has been wasted on these wars and I've yet to see what has been accomplished, in fact we've patently lost the benefits of both old regimes being in power! How many millions will be spent on national ID cards?

There seems to be no debate on Europe anymore either. Seems the topic is off limits for Conservatives. Granted Europe was the catalyst for the implosion of Tory politics, but the policy of ignoring it has opened the door to masses of EU laws being introduced into this country unchallenged.

Immigration? What a dirty word that is now as well. First of all we had asylum seekers, now we have half of Eastern Europe over here. I've yet to hear much about Romania and Bulgaria joining the EU and access restrictions on yet another wave of economic migrants coming over in just over a months time. We were told that when the first Eastern Europeans came over there would be no burdens on our benefit system. Ha! Not only have there been reports of social housing being provided, child benefit is being paid to workers whose kids are still in Poland or wherever. The kids that are over here can be admitted to our schools etc. I'd bet a lot of the money being earnt is posted back off to the origin counties as well.

Burning issues of the day?

Iraq and Afghanistan when do we leave?
Whats the immigration policy for Romania and Bulgaria?
When do we get less wasteful public spending?
When does the tax burden get lowered?Where is the sensible debate on Europe?
Can the whole benefit system be overhauled?
Should we continue with a 'free' NHS service?

I especially would like to see a debate and reforms on the NHS and benefit system. These two areas must swallow massive amounts of money. I can't help but feel if benefits were only offered for a short period of time to the genuinely needy then there would be a massive uptake in British people getting jobs rather than rely on economic migrants taking them.

NHS? Keep if 'free' for the ages up to 18 and past 65 and make everyone else get their own insurance.

All the above subjects should be heartily debated by a vigorous opposition to the government. Yet all we get is hugging hoodies and tree logos.

warrenm2

The trouble with the big 3 is that they all are constrained by the fact that we are members of the EU, and the EU sets 75% of our laws for us. The recent child booster seats and age discrimination laws for instance were never debated in Parliament, never discussed by our MPs on whether its a good thing for Britain. MPs realise that they in fact cannot change anything in Britain today. Fishing policy to save cod stocks, agricultural policy, immigration policy are ALL decided by the EU, MPs cant do anything about them. The only policies that can be determined by the Government are foreign policy and defense, although the EU (through establishment of EU consulates around the world and the European Rapid Reaction Force) are moving into these areas too. Once the EU has a competency in an area it cannot be regained by national Governments. This is a continuous and insidious process, deliberately conducted behind the scenes. To illustrate the most recent example of how the EU is changing Britain and our lifestyle see this story Telegraph | News | EU change to wills law would overturn British tradition Basically the EU wants to tell you who you can leave your money to on your death!

There is only one party who have committed to the UK leaving the EU and that is the UKIP. I had my reservations about them but having actually read their manifesto (also here and here) and listened to their leader speak (here and here - my favourite) I realise they are the only party to represent what I believe in. They are growing all the time and are getting my vote.

scoobynutta555

Thanks to whoever left me the rep saying wake you up when I've finished waffling. Maybe you feel threatened by a topic worth discussing that doesn't involve 2 words and a Utube link

The failure of the mainstream parties to discuss matters of importance will disenfrancise voters allowing groups like UKIP to have a greater voice. Admirable though the cause may be, with our first past the post system these parties will remain on the fringe. The danger of that is traditional party core beliefs will be fragmented and parties like this will have each one as their core, taking along traditional Tories and Labourite voters with them leaving the main parties vanilla groups.

It's quite interesting that nationally we seem to be gearing towards the break up of the union to increase local powers yet paradoxially we are increasingly being dominated by European legislation.

warrenm2

Dont agree with your analysis Im afraid (about UKIP remaining on the fringe) - the Labour Party has only been around 100 years and formed its first Government after 29 years of existence. The UKIP has been around 13 years and is growing all the time, especially given how the Tory party has abandoned the moderate right of centre area and UKIP is the only party there. Once people realise that your arguement is not true - it doesnt actually take that many switch voters to dramatically change the picture, and in fact, your arguement actively discourages change. The real problem is the people who dont vote because they believe your line that it wont change anything - its a self fulfilling prophesy!

Get out and vote - dont forget that parties also are worried about the margin they win a seat with, if that margin is narrow they realise they have to listen more

scoobynutta555

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree Minority parties can win through local elections, and indeed this has been the case. Nationally it is a different scenario and single issue parties cannot fail to be hindered by a first past the post system.

There shouldn't be a position where there are a multitude of single issue groups vying for votes nationally. Indeed it is a sign that the main parties are failing the electorate to engage in issues that are of real importance for the race of the middle ground.

warrenm2

Where were the Lib Dems 30 years ago? To say small parties dont get bigger is ridiculous!

On another point UKIP arent single issue - I linked to both their tax and education policies above, and they have more policy documents coming out soon. Its just that with the EU making 75% of our laws you cant really do much in national Government when we are members

scoobynutta555

Liberal Democrats were formed in 1859 The party has actually shunk in recent history making it a minority party.

UKIP are essentially a single issue party with satellite policies forming around the core policy, to get out of Europe. Nothing wrong with this stance,.

This is a sideshow to my point though, the biggest party in opposition is making a pigs ear of actually opposing the government, and important issues are not being discussed. It's amazing the stance of the Conservative party these days.

lordretsudo

I feel the exact same way as you Mr Scoobynutta. When Labour came to power in 97, although I would never vote for them, I genuinely thought that they would be a breath of fresh air and firmly thought nothing could be worse than John Major's uber-corrupt bunch of tossers. Unfortunately, I was wrong...

I haven't got the time or the inclination to list all the issues on which Blair + Labour have failed so miserably, besides it would be easier to try to think of things they haven't bollocksed up, as this would be by far the minority.

What on Earth the Conservatives are thinking, I have no idea. Why do they think Thatcher kept getting re-elected? Was it because she was centre-ground and a bleeding heart? Er, no - people want a genuine alternative to the centre/centre-left, and that is what the tories should be providing.

I've voted for the UKIP since its inception, as Europe is my single biggest bugbear politically, but this time round I would have voted tory had they finally picked a right wing leader.

I still think the majority of problems in this country can be traced back to basically a complete lack of common sense/judgement, coupled with a complete surrender to political correctness and timidity. A really big problem for the next government is going to be sorting out the welfare system/public sector as there are now so many people either on benefits or working for the state in pointless, overpaid jobs that no party pledging to sort the mess out is ever going to get voted in.

What a horrendous mess we're in, and that's without even mentioning Iraq (oops!) I've mentioned it on here before, but it's interesting that we're by no means the only country in this position - look at France, Italy, Germany and the US. All of these countries have recently seen the re-election of extremely unpopular parties/political leaders, or have failed to give alternative leaders enough of a mandate to anything about their problems. It seems like the West has sunk into a state of complete political apathy and meanwhile China and India are gaining ever faster...

brihoppy

is it possible to reverse the general apathy in the country at the moment...???

and how would someone go about doing it...?

paulr

I wouldn't say its apathy,its more they have realised the truth which is in 90% of situations,if you want a better life DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT YOURSELF.

brihoppy

theres only so much one can do without being held back by the govt...and not everyone can live the dream...might sound apathetic in itself but its the reality...most people just want a relatively simple life...

General Banter

The more simple life becomes, the more complicated it becomes.

brihoppy

very profound chris...

General Banter

Come on, what do you expect from me at this time of night????

brihoppy

youre obviously bored then...nothing good going on on the skyline forums...?

General Banter

No, usual chit-chat.

brihoppy

hows the course going?

General Banter

Lot of numbers, but I reckon it's passable!

General Banter

In fact no, I'm lying. It's pants.

warrenm2

Er, only 129 years out...

As for UKIP being single issue - they have more policies than the Tories! And like the Tories are adding more all the time as their research completes. Single issue - whilst true once, is NOT true anymore. The next General Election is being fought on a FULL range of policies. Obviously they are not your cup of tea which is fine, but please get your facts right.

Leslie

I think that as much as anything, our problems are exacerbated by the dreadful quality of politicians these days. They all seem to be good at producing the sound bites and so called initiatives thought up for them by their advisers, whose salaries we pay of course. Nothing ever of significant good ever seems to come of it all though. Two weeks later it has all faded into the background and we then are threatened with new taxes to keep topping up the enormous sums of money which are being thrown away employing a useless and unnecessary beaurocracy who can be expected to vote for them in order to keep their jobs!

We desperately need a strong leader who can lead his own party and who will run this country for the sake of the electorate in an honest fashion. Someone who will take the right decisions and not the ones that he hopes will be his shining legacy. This is the sort of example which would do much to get rid of the apathy which has beset this country.

Les

brihoppy

i.e. someone with no personal political agenda...?

scoobynutta555

No, I am correct. Liberal Democrats : History

And as regards UKIP. They are single issue in regards to they are primarily concerned with pulling the UK out of Europe, indeed they were formed for this very reason. Any other policy they may have tagged on is most certainly secondary to their objectives, and an attempt to broaden their appeal. I have no bone to pick with either you or UKIP or any other small party. I am concerned with the failure of the big two parties to engage the electorate, indeed have policies that reflect the whole range of the political agenda not just the middle ground.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I have to admit to being a little mystified as to just WHY some folk blame the EU for everything that's wrong with Britain.

There are quite a few OTHER countries in the EU too, but they DON'T seem to have the same problems with the new laws

Could it be that the anally retentive British just grab and enforce any new laws, while the rest of Europe sorts out the ones to enforce properly, (the ones that benefit THEM), and pays lip service to the others?

So really, IS it the EU's fault? Not in my books.........

Alcazar

warrenm2

Other countries legal system is based on Napolenonic laws - ours is a common law system, they start from completely different points. 75% of laws in this country originate in Brussels - we are no longer self-determining.

Good point - yes this is a factor - the whole gold plating by the directive drafters in this country. As for ignoring rules that dont suit us - again a cultural difference, in this country we have a tradition of rule by law and I think we are stronger for it, and it is not something I wish to see abandoned. I just want the laws to be set by the UK for the Uks benefit, not by Brussels for the EUs (often read France and Germanys) benefit. CAP and Common Fisheries policy are the most obvious examples

warrenm2

Sorry, as before, they are no longer single issue, the issue of Europe ENABLES THEM to achieve self determination and to implement the policies that the UK Government no longer has authority to change

As for the Lib Dems - if you dont understand the difference between the Liberal Party and the Lib Dems then I dont think you are really in a position to comment with any credibility

vindaloo

Maybe have a swap and invite the Australian or NZ opposition parties to have a go - anything to keep politics fresh