Iraq WTF ?
24 November 2006, 02:14 PM
#1
Iraq WTF ?
Every day I hear the following headline or variation on the news,
'MARKET BOMB BLAST KILLS ### IN BAGDAD'
Yesterdays was a biggie I realise that but almost every day something with the Enormity of the London Bombings happens, what is going on, Soldiers killing civillians and vice-versa, civilians killing each other ?
I can understand why they perhaps want to blow soldiers up but why each other, what is it with them that their only answer to any given situation seems to be shoot it, blow it up or hack its head of with a bread knife ?
To be honest if I were an Iraqi, internet ordering would seem a lot more appealing than nipping down to the market, saying that I wouldn't fancy receiving packages either, even if the package didnt blow up the postman might, what a f*ckin mess.
Will it settle down if the troops get pulled out or will it get worse, I suspect that life was actually safer for most whilst Saddam was in power.
'MARKET BOMB BLAST KILLS ### IN BAGDAD'
Yesterdays was a biggie I realise that but almost every day something with the Enormity of the London Bombings happens, what is going on, Soldiers killing civillians and vice-versa, civilians killing each other ?
I can understand why they perhaps want to blow soldiers up but why each other, what is it with them that their only answer to any given situation seems to be shoot it, blow it up or hack its head of with a bread knife ?
To be honest if I were an Iraqi, internet ordering would seem a lot more appealing than nipping down to the market, saying that I wouldn't fancy receiving packages either, even if the package didnt blow up the postman might, what a f*ckin mess.
Will it settle down if the troops get pulled out or will it get worse, I suspect that life was actually safer for most whilst Saddam was in power.
24 November 2006, 02:25 PM
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I think a lot more folk were being (are being?) killed in the Congo but, of course, that is of no interest to the West.
Then there's Mr Blair saying "We'll stay here (Afghanistan) until we defeat the Taliban". Foolish words. Have a word with Russia, Mr Blair.
A terrible mess all around.
Then there's Mr Blair saying "We'll stay here (Afghanistan) until we defeat the Taliban". Foolish words. Have a word with Russia, Mr Blair.
A terrible mess all around.
24 November 2006, 02:26 PM
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A lot of it is down to Iranian sponsored insurgents. Getting their own back for the Iran / Iraq war.
Also some fundemental loonies and various 'turf' wars for control going on.
Its not a simple situation to sort out. Probably end up in full on civil war with Iraq ceasing to exist as we know it (split into new countries) with Iran taking the southern bit. Kurds in the north. And the middle bit split between Sunnies and Sheits (sp?).
Also some fundemental loonies and various 'turf' wars for control going on.
Its not a simple situation to sort out. Probably end up in full on civil war with Iraq ceasing to exist as we know it (split into new countries) with Iran taking the southern bit. Kurds in the north. And the middle bit split between Sunnies and Sheits (sp?).
24 November 2006, 02:27 PM
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It's only going to get a lot worse over the coming months.
If one of the neighboring countries / political powers end up controlling it after we pull out - it'll really become a threat.
If one of the neighboring countries / political powers end up controlling it after we pull out - it'll really become a threat.
24 November 2006, 07:42 PM
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I guess is needed a mad despotic dictator like Saddam to keep it all in check before.
The insurgents are from smaller militant groups who have no chance of representation in a democratic country so it is in their interest to maintain chaos.
The insurgents are from smaller militant groups who have no chance of representation in a democratic country so it is in their interest to maintain chaos.
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24 November 2006, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Olly
Tragic about Sunni and Shia fighting.
I always liked their records.
I always liked their records.
United We Stand
Cowboy's Work Is Never Done, A (George Bush
)Living In A House Divided
Chip
25 November 2006, 07:00 PM
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Good post Jacko
The Middle East has always been a turbulent place, for hundreds and thousands of years. The West has a history of ignorance and foolish (if well-meaning) meddling but at least Saddam understood the basic dynamics and, to a certain extent, kept a lid on it (apart from invading Iraq [8 years of war, millions dead], invading Kuwait, bombing Israel and slaughtering his own people
).
The fundamental driving forcing is pure, simple, hatred, and it's time we realsied this. Sunni Mulslims hate Shia Muslims, both hate Arab Christians, they all hate Jews and Americans (and British). Break it down further and you have Hamas and Hezbollah joisting for power (they are suposed to be on the same Muslim side) and that is just skimming the surface with a very superficial overview. Then you have national and territorial squabbles, the issue of oil, overlaid with political ambition and 1001 other complications. Oh, and I almost forgot Al Qaeda. And Afgahnistan, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia...
As a small example, I tried to get to grips with what the hell has been happening in the the Gaza Strip over the last few decades. My western mindset cannot make head or tail of it
Violence is a way of life, death is not an issue, and peace is simply not on any current Arab agenda. This is completely at odds with Western mentality and, I believe, at the heart of our difficulties. But an appreciation of this doens't bring us any closer to any solution we would find acceptable. Tragically, I cannot see any lasting peace before a period of civil slaughter the like of which we cannot concieve.
I've taken quite an interest in this mess recently, and tried to learn what's going on. I thought I had half an idea, then spent several weeks in the area (Israel) and realsied that, in fact, I don't have a clue. It is incredibly complex and I probably have about as much understanding as Bush and Blair, which is truly frightening.
Richard.
The Middle East has always been a turbulent place, for hundreds and thousands of years. The West has a history of ignorance and foolish (if well-meaning) meddling but at least Saddam understood the basic dynamics and, to a certain extent, kept a lid on it (apart from invading Iraq [8 years of war, millions dead], invading Kuwait, bombing Israel and slaughtering his own people
).The fundamental driving forcing is pure, simple, hatred, and it's time we realsied this. Sunni Mulslims hate Shia Muslims, both hate Arab Christians, they all hate Jews and Americans (and British). Break it down further and you have Hamas and Hezbollah joisting for power (they are suposed to be on the same Muslim side) and that is just skimming the surface with a very superficial overview. Then you have national and territorial squabbles, the issue of oil, overlaid with political ambition and 1001 other complications. Oh, and I almost forgot Al Qaeda. And Afgahnistan, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia...
As a small example, I tried to get to grips with what the hell has been happening in the the Gaza Strip over the last few decades. My western mindset cannot make head or tail of it
Violence is a way of life, death is not an issue, and peace is simply not on any current Arab agenda. This is completely at odds with Western mentality and, I believe, at the heart of our difficulties. But an appreciation of this doens't bring us any closer to any solution we would find acceptable. Tragically, I cannot see any lasting peace before a period of civil slaughter the like of which we cannot concieve.
I've taken quite an interest in this mess recently, and tried to learn what's going on. I thought I had half an idea, then spent several weeks in the area (Israel) and realsied that, in fact, I don't have a clue. It is incredibly complex and I probably have about as much understanding as Bush and Blair, which is truly frightening.
Richard.
Last edited by Hoppy; 25 November 2006 at 07:11 PM.
26 November 2006, 12:07 AM
#15
Pull out, leave them to dust, heat, **** and buggering camels, cant say their contribution to the world is that great other than happening to sit on loads of oil, their only tv satirist was murdered last week for daring to say anything, too f*cked up for words and I dont think out prescence helps one iota so whats the point of sending our soldiers out there to get killed, what is the point of saving a place that cant even take a joke at its own expense, the lack of ability to see themselves from another veiwpoint kind of says to me that they are beyond redemption.
26 November 2006, 12:48 AM
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Jacko, I don't think we are there yet, but barring a miracle (there's nothing on the horizon) it's not far off. It's just a question of timing.
I think the question we face, is how do we get out, with least damage to the Iraqui people. This is a matter for our own concsience as I don't think the Iraquis couldn't really give a damn. We're just getting in the way of their own civil war right now, and getting killed for our efforts. But can we live with that? We are where we are and there's no turning the clock back.
The question for me is now can coalition forces position themselves so that the inevitabvle withdrawal does not back-fire on us in the future. We want freinds in the middle east. We went in to to do good we cannot pull out now when the situation is clearly worse, and when we will be held to blame for whatever follows.
Does anybody, on any side, have a plan for the future that does not inlude the deaths of hundreds of thousand of innocent coivilians?
Richard.
I think the question we face, is how do we get out, with least damage to the Iraqui people. This is a matter for our own concsience as I don't think the Iraquis couldn't really give a damn. We're just getting in the way of their own civil war right now, and getting killed for our efforts. But can we live with that? We are where we are and there's no turning the clock back.
The question for me is now can coalition forces position themselves so that the inevitabvle withdrawal does not back-fire on us in the future. We want freinds in the middle east. We went in to to do good we cannot pull out now when the situation is clearly worse, and when we will be held to blame for whatever follows.
Does anybody, on any side, have a plan for the future that does not inlude the deaths of hundreds of thousand of innocent coivilians?
Richard.
26 November 2006, 11:17 AM
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Its called civil war J4CKO. As you say, many Iraqis now think they were better off under SH. He at least was able to control the three factions but in a dreadfully brutal way.
It was obviously the height of stupidity to think that the West could impose their style of democracy on people who have been used to a feudal life up to now. Everyone else realised that-except the politicians. The present situation seems to be insoluble and the pity is the continual deaths of so many innocent people. What a legacy Billy and his idiot mate will have in the future..
Les
It was obviously the height of stupidity to think that the West could impose their style of democracy on people who have been used to a feudal life up to now. Everyone else realised that-except the politicians. The present situation seems to be insoluble and the pity is the continual deaths of so many innocent people. What a legacy Billy and his idiot mate will have in the future..
Les
26 November 2006, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoppy
Good post Jacko
The Middle East has always been a turbulent place, for hundreds and thousands of years. The West has a history of ignorance and foolish (if well-meaning) meddling but at least Saddam understood the basic dynamics and, to a certain extent, kept a lid on it (apart from invading Iraq [8 years of war, millions dead], invading Kuwait, bombing Israel and slaughtering his own people ).
The fundamental driving forcing is pure, simple, hatred, and it's time we realsied this. Sunni Mulslims hate Shia Muslims, both hate Arab Christians, they all hate Jews and Americans (and British). Break it down further and you have Hamas and Hezbollah joisting for power (they are suposed to be on the same Muslim side) and that is just skimming the surface with a very superficial overview. Then you have national and territorial squabbles, the issue of oil, overlaid with political ambition and 1001 other complications. Oh, and I almost forgot Al Qaeda. And Afgahnistan, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia...
As a small example, I tried to get to grips with what the hell has been happening in the the Gaza Strip over the last few decades. My western mindset cannot make head or tail of it
Violence is a way of life, death is not an issue, and peace is simply not on any current Arab agenda. This is completely at odds with Western mentality and, I believe, at the heart of our difficulties. But an appreciation of this doens't bring us any closer to any solution we would find acceptable. Tragically, I cannot see any lasting peace before a period of civil slaughter the like of which we cannot concieve.
I've taken quite an interest in this mess recently, and tried to learn what's going on. I thought I had half an idea, then spent several weeks in the area (Israel) and realsied that, in fact, I don't have a clue. It is incredibly complex and I probably have about as much understanding as Bush and Blair, which is truly frightening.
Richard.
The Middle East has always been a turbulent place, for hundreds and thousands of years. The West has a history of ignorance and foolish (if well-meaning) meddling but at least Saddam understood the basic dynamics and, to a certain extent, kept a lid on it (apart from invading Iraq [8 years of war, millions dead], invading Kuwait, bombing Israel and slaughtering his own people
).The fundamental driving forcing is pure, simple, hatred, and it's time we realsied this. Sunni Mulslims hate Shia Muslims, both hate Arab Christians, they all hate Jews and Americans (and British). Break it down further and you have Hamas and Hezbollah joisting for power (they are suposed to be on the same Muslim side) and that is just skimming the surface with a very superficial overview. Then you have national and territorial squabbles, the issue of oil, overlaid with political ambition and 1001 other complications. Oh, and I almost forgot Al Qaeda. And Afgahnistan, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia...
As a small example, I tried to get to grips with what the hell has been happening in the the Gaza Strip over the last few decades. My western mindset cannot make head or tail of it
Violence is a way of life, death is not an issue, and peace is simply not on any current Arab agenda. This is completely at odds with Western mentality and, I believe, at the heart of our difficulties. But an appreciation of this doens't bring us any closer to any solution we would find acceptable. Tragically, I cannot see any lasting peace before a period of civil slaughter the like of which we cannot concieve.
I've taken quite an interest in this mess recently, and tried to learn what's going on. I thought I had half an idea, then spent several weeks in the area (Israel) and realsied that, in fact, I don't have a clue. It is incredibly complex and I probably have about as much understanding as Bush and Blair, which is truly frightening.
Richard.
This goes some way to explain how different groups interact. Beck and Cowan were key advisers to the last apartheid government and helped them create a way for dismantling apartheid and find a way forward for South Africa. The work they did had some success and help break a fundamentalist regime that had been in place for over a hundred years.
They are now working in the Middle East although this is clearly a hugely more difficult task as there are so many stakeholders, some of whom want to change and some who don't.
Spiral dynamis goes a long way to understand something at the core of the West-Middle East challenge, indeed we do work and think in a very different way that is explicable although not easily resolveable.
I don't think that hate is the key driver, it is fear in nations that have a feudal/tribal culture. Fear is a key element of being tribal. I also believe that little has changed for a thousand years - there are Muslims true to their faith and Muslims who are political extremists.
One of the leading Muslim scholars, Mowlana Jalaludin Mohamad, in the 1200s wrote: -
"We may know who we are or we may not.
We may be Muslims, Jews or Christians
but until our hearts
become the mould for every heart
we will see only our differences".
He also wrote: -
"Troubled by questions all of my life
like a madman I have been
knocking at the door.
It opened!
I had been knocking from the inside."
Rannoch
Last edited by Trout; 26 November 2006 at 10:44 PM.
26 November 2006, 10:32 PM
#20
The best thing that could happen to Iraq is the re-instatement of Saddam Hussein as head of state.
Of course the liberals will say "Ooooh, he's evil and killed some kurds" but I think if you take into account the cost and lives lost because of this total clusterfcuk by the the US aand the UK, then it would have been better to leave him in in the first place.
Of course the liberals will say "Ooooh, he's evil and killed some kurds" but I think if you take into account the cost and lives lost because of this total clusterfcuk by the the US aand the UK, then it would have been better to leave him in in the first place.
26 November 2006, 10:38 PM
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It will happen indirectly.
Troop withdrawal - sectarian civil war with new feudal leaders taking all or some of the prize.
Judeo-Christian values are not applicable as George Bush is finding out to his cost.
Rannoch
Troop withdrawal - sectarian civil war with new feudal leaders taking all or some of the prize.
Judeo-Christian values are not applicable as George Bush is finding out to his cost.
Rannoch
26 November 2006, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
You indicate you have spent some time researching this. If you want to get a deeper understanding get a hold of "Spiral Dynamics" by Beck and Cowan.
This goes some way to explain how different groups interact. Beck and Cowan were key advisers to the last apartheid government and helped them create a way for dismantling apartheid and find a way forward for South Africa. The work they did had some success and help break a fundamentalist regime that had been in place for over a hundred years.
They are now working in the Middle East although this is clearly a hugely more difficult task as there are so many stakeholders, some of whom want to change and some who don't.
Spiral dynamis goes a long way to understand something at the core of the West-Middle East challenge, indeed we do work and think in a very different way that is explicable although not easily resolveable.
I don't think that hate is the key driver, it is fear in nations that have a feudal/tribal culture. Fear is a key element of being tribal. I also believe that little has changed for a thousand years - there are Muslims true to their faith and Muslims who are political extremists.
One of the leading Muslim scholars, Mowlana Jalaludin Mohamad, in the 1200s wrote: -
"We may know who we are or we may not.
We may be Muslims, Jews or Christians
but until our hearts
become the mould for every heart
we will see only our differences".
He also wrote: -
"Troubled by questions all of my life
like a madman I have been
knocking at the door.
It opened!
I had been knocking from the inside."
Rannoch
This goes some way to explain how different groups interact. Beck and Cowan were key advisers to the last apartheid government and helped them create a way for dismantling apartheid and find a way forward for South Africa. The work they did had some success and help break a fundamentalist regime that had been in place for over a hundred years.
They are now working in the Middle East although this is clearly a hugely more difficult task as there are so many stakeholders, some of whom want to change and some who don't.
Spiral dynamis goes a long way to understand something at the core of the West-Middle East challenge, indeed we do work and think in a very different way that is explicable although not easily resolveable.
I don't think that hate is the key driver, it is fear in nations that have a feudal/tribal culture. Fear is a key element of being tribal. I also believe that little has changed for a thousand years - there are Muslims true to their faith and Muslims who are political extremists.
One of the leading Muslim scholars, Mowlana Jalaludin Mohamad, in the 1200s wrote: -
"We may know who we are or we may not.
We may be Muslims, Jews or Christians
but until our hearts
become the mould for every heart
we will see only our differences".
He also wrote: -
"Troubled by questions all of my life
like a madman I have been
knocking at the door.
It opened!
I had been knocking from the inside."
Rannoch
For posting the above I get...
...wait for it...
..."********".
How eloquent
Rannoch
PS Perhaps you would like to add a post describing your understanding of Middle Eastern affairs?
Last edited by Trout; 26 November 2006 at 10:46 PM.
27 November 2006, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoppy
Good post Jacko
The Middle East has always been a turbulent place, for hundreds and thousands of years. The West has a history of ignorance and foolish (if well-meaning) meddling but at least Saddam understood the basic dynamics and, to a certain extent, kept a lid on it (apart from invading Iraq [8 years of war, millions dead], invading Kuwait, bombing Israel and slaughtering his own people ).
The fundamental driving forcing is pure, simple, hatred, and it's time we realsied this. Sunni Mulslims hate Shia Muslims, both hate Arab Christians, they all hate Jews and Americans (and British). Break it down further and you have Hamas and Hezbollah joisting for power (they are suposed to be on the same Muslim side) and that is just skimming the surface with a very superficial overview. Then you have national and territorial squabbles, the issue of oil, overlaid with political ambition and 1001 other complications. Oh, and I almost forgot Al Qaeda. And Afgahnistan, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia...
As a small example, I tried to get to grips with what the hell has been happening in the the Gaza Strip over the last few decades. My western mindset cannot make head or tail of it
Violence is a way of life, death is not an issue, and peace is simply not on any current Arab agenda. This is completely at odds with Western mentality and, I believe, at the heart of our difficulties. But an appreciation of this doens't bring us any closer to any solution we would find acceptable. Tragically, I cannot see any lasting peace before a period of civil slaughter the like of which we cannot concieve.
I've taken quite an interest in this mess recently, and tried to learn what's going on. I thought I had half an idea, then spent several weeks in the area (Israel) and realsied that, in fact, I don't have a clue. It is incredibly complex and I probably have about as much understanding as Bush and Blair, which is truly frightening.
Richard.
The Middle East has always been a turbulent place, for hundreds and thousands of years. The West has a history of ignorance and foolish (if well-meaning) meddling but at least Saddam understood the basic dynamics and, to a certain extent, kept a lid on it (apart from invading Iraq [8 years of war, millions dead], invading Kuwait, bombing Israel and slaughtering his own people
).The fundamental driving forcing is pure, simple, hatred, and it's time we realsied this. Sunni Mulslims hate Shia Muslims, both hate Arab Christians, they all hate Jews and Americans (and British). Break it down further and you have Hamas and Hezbollah joisting for power (they are suposed to be on the same Muslim side) and that is just skimming the surface with a very superficial overview. Then you have national and territorial squabbles, the issue of oil, overlaid with political ambition and 1001 other complications. Oh, and I almost forgot Al Qaeda. And Afgahnistan, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia...
As a small example, I tried to get to grips with what the hell has been happening in the the Gaza Strip over the last few decades. My western mindset cannot make head or tail of it
Violence is a way of life, death is not an issue, and peace is simply not on any current Arab agenda. This is completely at odds with Western mentality and, I believe, at the heart of our difficulties. But an appreciation of this doens't bring us any closer to any solution we would find acceptable. Tragically, I cannot see any lasting peace before a period of civil slaughter the like of which we cannot concieve.
I've taken quite an interest in this mess recently, and tried to learn what's going on. I thought I had half an idea, then spent several weeks in the area (Israel) and realsied that, in fact, I don't have a clue. It is incredibly complex and I probably have about as much understanding as Bush and Blair, which is truly frightening.
Richard.
If you haven't already, have a look at Syriana
27 November 2006, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
You indicate you have spent some time researching this. If you want to get a deeper understanding get a hold of "Spiral Dynamics" by Beck and Cowan.
This goes some way to explain how different groups interact. Beck and Cowan were key advisers to the last apartheid government and helped them create a way for dismantling apartheid and find a way forward for South Africa. The work they did had some success and help break a fundamentalist regime that had been in place for over a hundred years.
They are now working in the Middle East although this is clearly a hugely more difficult task as there are so many stakeholders, some of whom want to change and some who don't.
Spiral dynamis goes a long way to understand something at the core of the West-Middle East challenge, indeed we do work and think in a very different way that is explicable although not easily resolveable.
I don't think that hate is the key driver, it is fear in nations that have a feudal/tribal culture. Fear is a key element of being tribal. I also believe that little has changed for a thousand years - there are Muslims true to their faith and Muslims who are political extremists.
One of the leading Muslim scholars, Mowlana Jalaludin Mohamad, in the 1200s wrote: -
"We may know who we are or we may not.
We may be Muslims, Jews or Christians
but until our hearts
become the mould for every heart
we will see only our differences".
He also wrote: -
"Troubled by questions all of my life
like a madman I have been
knocking at the door.
It opened!
I had been knocking from the inside."
Rannoch
This goes some way to explain how different groups interact. Beck and Cowan were key advisers to the last apartheid government and helped them create a way for dismantling apartheid and find a way forward for South Africa. The work they did had some success and help break a fundamentalist regime that had been in place for over a hundred years.
They are now working in the Middle East although this is clearly a hugely more difficult task as there are so many stakeholders, some of whom want to change and some who don't.
Spiral dynamis goes a long way to understand something at the core of the West-Middle East challenge, indeed we do work and think in a very different way that is explicable although not easily resolveable.
I don't think that hate is the key driver, it is fear in nations that have a feudal/tribal culture. Fear is a key element of being tribal. I also believe that little has changed for a thousand years - there are Muslims true to their faith and Muslims who are political extremists.
One of the leading Muslim scholars, Mowlana Jalaludin Mohamad, in the 1200s wrote: -
"We may know who we are or we may not.
We may be Muslims, Jews or Christians
but until our hearts
become the mould for every heart
we will see only our differences".
He also wrote: -
"Troubled by questions all of my life
like a madman I have been
knocking at the door.
It opened!
I had been knocking from the inside."
Rannoch
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