KiwiGTI

I watched this for the first time last night and must admit I was fairly stunned by some of the comments on it and still can't believe that we tolerate this religion in the UK.

The entire audience and panel were all Muslim for a start so no representation from other religion.

The majority of people involved were moderates from what I could see and hear, doctors, shopowners, office workers etc.

But the overwhelmingly depressing fact was that they all treated the Koran as the absolute law - there was no disagreement over that fact and the variations in belief come about from the interpretation of it.

When asked if they believed in creationism about 27/30 raised their hands, when asked whether they believed i evolution 3/30 raised their hands - even though there is scientific evidence for evolution and it can be reproduced in experimental conditions.

The Koran states that humans are created from "Nutfa" - a small amount of liquid = sperm. Because the Koran says this it make it impossible for them to accept any other explanation for the creation of man. (God put Adam & Eve on the planet and Adam had the "Nutfa" straightaway - no evolution)

Voluntary euthanasia was universally condemned.

And then they turned to organ transplantation. The Imam was completely against any form of organ transplant, even after brain stem death and he justified it by saying that only God could give out organs etc. One of the audience was a heart and lung transplant specialist and he was obviously at odds with this Imam, but guess which one will be teaching the Muslim youth.

But then I was absolutely stunned as another panel member, a specialist in obstetrics, came out and agreed with organ transplants being OK but then went on to say that more Muslims need to donate their organs because Muslims are having to accept bodyparts and transplants from non-Muslim bodies and that it was not really acceptable for this to be happening!!!

It saddens me that such learned people cannot be role models for Muslim youths - that even though they may hold doctorates and professorships in medicine that they can't move on from the writings of the Koran. It also disturbs me that the most extreme views were held by the Imam (Tooting Mosque I think) and that all these views are completely inflexible and intolerant of science, other peoples beliefs and basic human rights.

It leads me to conclude that the liberals that support them and make excuses for them realloy don't know what they are talking about.

moses

well i have to say u watched it with blinkered eyes, its like asking hitler to watch a jewish emotional drama and cry


he wasnt extreme just didnt believe in evolution. u forgot the other 2 panels and , people ask to get on it to ask questions, they dont just grab anyone fromt the street to come on

and also the muslim lady said, their should be more muslim donors, she meant it as the muslims have to be given non muslim donors in a way she meant their should be more muslims doing it and helping the muslims and the other imam said muslims and helping humanity

u have just gone and twisted it all

kiwi u need to get your paheka head out of your **** and start living life

Hoppy

Moses, I agree with you

I've watched the Shariah TV series and while the first programme had some disturbing ranting going on, the other three progs have actually given me hope that there is a moderate Muslim line that can coexist peacefully within mainstream British culture. Moses, what do you think? I've also posed the same question to you here https://www.scoobynet.com/should-mus...t535282p5.html

Kiwi, you've said above:

"But the overwhelmingly depressing fact was that they all treated the Koran as the absolute law - there was no disagreement over that fact and the variations in belief come about from the interpretation of it."

One of the good things about the Koran is it pretty much has to be interpreted to be relevant today. Yes, there is a violent anti-West interpretation, but also a peaceful one. Like the Bible, you can read anything into it. All it takes is for the influential clerics and scholars to emphasise the latter. Okay, that's easy to say and hard to achieve, but it can be done.

"The Koran states that humans are created from "Nutfa" - a small amount of liquid = sperm. Because the Koran says this it make it impossible for them to accept any other explanation for the creation of man. (God put Adam & Eve on the planet and Adam had the "Nutfa" straightaway - no evolution)"

This sounds just as reasonable/unreasonable as any other religious text. Anyway, does it matter in the context of the terrorist debate?

"Voluntary euthanasia was universally condemned."

It's also illegal in British law.

"And then they turned to organ transplantation. The Imam was completely against any form of organ transplant, even after brain stem death and he justified it by saying that only God could give out organs etc. One of the audience was a heart and lung transplant specialist and he was obviously at odds with this Imam, but guess which one will be teaching the Muslim youth."

Organ transplantation is a very difficult question for many religions (Jehovah's Witness?). Isn't that a problem for Muslims? Does it harm anybody else?

"It saddens me that such learned people cannot be role models for Muslim youths - that even though they may hold doctorates and professorships in medicine that they can't move on from the writings of the Koran. It also disturbs me that the most extreme views were held by the Imam (Tooting Mosque I think) and that all these views are completely inflexible and intolerant of science, other peoples beliefs and basic human rights."

I thought some members of the panel and the audience were quite good role models, living in the real world outside the Mosque. Yes, the Iman was rather intimidating, kept spouting Islamic quotes and said his mother would have to die if she needed a heart transplant. That's his problem (or maybe his mother's) but he's entitled to his views so long as they conform with British law. He was not asked abouit Islamic terrorism so innocent until proven guilty.

Richard.

Lord Shrek

hard enough to sit through an episode of the kumars at no 42......

Lord Shrek.....how can you see if a bird is fit with sharia law ninja outfits?

TimmyboyWRX

^^ i think thats why they have lots of wives, incase one turns out to be a rotter underneath the ninja suit lol

KiwiGTI

It's the total inflexibility and blind belief that I find hard to take, regardless of the interpretation. I didn't want to have an argument about comparitive religions but the Muslims seem to take the words of the Koran much more seriously than any other into their personal lives, as opposed to the majority of other countries that my and large have secular states and voluntarily choose to live their lives using Christian morals. But they don't take the bible literally.

Wasn't really supposed to be about terrorists, it's just that the show was on last night.

The question of legality never arose, this was a debate on ethics. The majority of the British public support voluntary euthanasia for people in extreme pain/terminal illness allowing them their final dignity that they wish. It's a basic human right.

Yes, it harms the 4 year old girl that will die without a transplant and can't make the decision for herself. The main point there was the comment, and I believe Moses is wrong, that she made about too many Muslims having to accept non-Muslim body parts. Should it matter at all whether they are Muslim or not, and if it doesn't matter as Moses suggests why did she even make that comment.

Yes, they were quite good, but still had the unexplicable belief (and I'm well aware of other religions too) that what was written 1400 years ago by a man, a mortal, like you or I, is the whole truth and cannot be challenged or disobeyed.

My point about the Imam was that out of all of them, including the good role models, he is the one whose views are most likely to be taught and learnt by the Muslim youth or students of the religion.

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

The Theory of Evolution has never been scientifically proven. thats why is still called the "Theory" of evolution. when Darwin came to this theory it was to aid him in classification. there was flaws even which he openly admitted at the time. even when studying biology at A-Level a competent tutor will tell you there are links missing in his theory and that it just "Easier" to be taught this "theory".
As far as a "normal" man writing the Koran 1400 years ago, this is not true and if you read the Koran you'll know why. Yes the "man" put ink to paper, but read the content and you'll soon realise why it wasnt possible for a person to write these things 1400 years ago. as you have been brought up with science around you and for someone like yourself science is probably your reality. So what i'll do is show how your reality was mentioned in the Koran many years before western "scientists" made they're discoveries. The Koran mentions the reproduction cycle, water cycle, it mentions astronomy...etc. etc.... you forget science's most prominent contributors were muslim in that time. How could an uneducated person at that time know about the universe, different planets, the suns orbit, the fact that the human body is made of large percentage of water, that the embryo during early stages in reproduction has a leech-like appearance? it also states it is also said to reaemble a "chewed" substance-the somites of older embryo resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance..... People found this out within the last few centuries, yet the Koran stated this 1400 years ago...... just a little bit more food for thought for you is that there is no Scholar, writer or any Human on this earth that can reproduce a piece of literature that can match the Koran in respect to either style and form, or content. the poetry, prose, the rhymed prose, the language used and style excels any other; its comprehensiveness cannot be matched; its legislation cannot be surpassed; its narrations of the unknown can only result from revelation; its lack of contradiction with the sound natural sciences; the knowledge it comprises (both legal and concerning creation).... I could go on. If you doubt it then do some research, many have tried- no one has even come close.
Just a little advice for next time, before you chastise a religion after watching one programme on channel four, I would at least try and research into it first.

TimmyboyWRX

Yes, all that may be true...

But the bible is also a work of religion, and being a christian if i followed it i would hate all gays, etc...

The fact is that whether or not the Koran is the result of God working throgh the Prophet to get his word to the people, it is how the teachers interpret this word of God that is being held to question.

At the end of the day, surely there is one God, most religions have only one deity, or at least one cheif deity, and the differnt religions have sprung up in different parts of the world, with different leaders ( Mohammed, Jesus etc..) So what i find difficult to understand is the whole 'my god's better than your god' rivalry between the major religions?

Plus Islam is at the same point in its developement now as Christianity was during the crusades and the inquisition, and modern terrorist practices to 'overcome the infidels' are simply a modern version of the inquisition, with just as much innocent blood spilt in the name of religion.

People, Muslims in this case need to be more forward thinking in terms of what they do, becasue you can never spread the word of any god through fear and intimidation. Moderation is always the key, both to improve your own standing in the community, and to make others perhaps think about your case more seriously rather than reacting to extreme views with extremem veiws

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

Your right everything comes down to intepretation, unfortunately there are a lot of fundamentalists out there who violate islam and use it to manipulate young people for their own needs. im a 21 year old Muslim living in London, and every day you come across aspects of life which Islam does not agree on, but it also says live and let live. if someone chooses to be homosexual thats their choice you don't have to hate them or kill them or be prejudice in any way. Islam does not teach that. It teaches respect no matter what someones belief or way of life.
You cant compare the inquisitions to this as the majority of the muslim population is against this violence and bloodshed, during the inquistions there was no one against the bloodshed and the majority if not all the populatiion believed they were killing non christians in the name of god.
The terrorists that are spilling innocent blood today are NOT muslim. No where in the Koran does it say to kill innocent people. Many people have got their own agendas but use Islam to carry them out. What many need to understand is that people have fundamental views not Islam.
I agree with you and also don't understand the attitude that some people have, of "im better than you because im ?*£***$* and your not" whatever someones beliefs are, respect them. No religion promotes violence or bloodshed.
Your one of the few who understands that misconceptions of Islam reside around the fact that some of the people who teach the religion are extremists rather than Islam itself.

TimmyboyWRX

well i am glad we got that one straight ( im 25 by the way, maybe its the youth of this country muslim or christian who should get together and get the situation sorted lol)

As i say at the end of the day Islam is a religion the same as any other, and i havnt read the Koran, but you tell me it preaches respect etc... so that is your interpretation and one that you use to live your life and for guidance etc...

Is this what you were taught by an Imam or something you have discovered for yourself? Because it seems to me that you are using Islam in the way it was intended by God, i.e as a means to guide you through your life and allow you to find meaning without ( for want of a better expression ) 'inflicting your views upon others'

It is the people as you rightly say, who use Islam as a cover for their extreme views that are the problem ( as was the case in the crusades, although possibly not a brilliant comaparison ) and that being so, why is it that the Muslim community as a whole does not comdemn these people and do something about it ( throwing out radical clerics etc... )?

moses

God willing kiwi's kids will be righteous muslims when their older ameen


that will be his just desserts


quran created science, when the western world woz squatting inthe forests

the quran brought forth the light and civilisation that even the romans couldnt compete or the greeks


anyone who knows their history , know im telling the truth


check these books out, available to buy too or free on the net



http://www.harunyahya.com/refuted1.php


http://www.harunyahya.com/signs_design_01.php



http://www.harunyahya.com/tellmeaboutthecreation01.php


and have a look at all the books available


http://www.harunyahya.com/html/m_book_index.htm

Diablo

I can actually see both sides of this quite clearly.

There are Christian fundamentalist groups that believe in everything the Bible says (and it is full of contradictions to current existence also)

There are groups led by religious belief all over the world, where those beliefs are at odds with what western society considers acceptable.

It is that unoquivocable belief in the Koran that keeps the Muslim community together. Who are we non Muslims to say it is wrong for them?

However, and here is the big issue I have with all of it. Just as non Muslims have no right to interfere with the Muslim way of life (provided it operates within the laws of of the land in which it is being practiced), so Muslims have no right to interfere with my wishes, as a non Muslim, should I so desire, to get pissed, **** around and generally live a life of debauchery, provided I am doing so within the laws of the land in which I practice my chosen lifestyle.

It does, however, appear that there is a desire in the Muslim community to see all of the society in which they live operate under their rules.

I should point out, however, that it is not just Muslims who do this. All of the more committed religious groups do this.

Interestingly (or perhaps not) the most "lapse" faiths, seem to be the most tolerant ones (albeit arguably the least moral ones)

There has to be a balance, and its not just Muslims who have to climb down from their high horse of righteousness.

Catholics, Jews and the more extreme presbyterians are JUST as guilty in many respects.

Although, to be fair, I've yet to see a Catholic blow up a plane because they are upset with abortion law (for example)

TimmyboyWRX

not meaning to sound like a **** but

''created science, when the western world woz squatting inthe forests''

that phrasing does tend to undermine your argument slightly there lol

Diablo

Moses, that may, or may not be the case, but that doesn't mean its "right" and other ways are "wrong"

Its just "different" and if everyone accepted that (on both sides) there would be peace and harmony.

OllyK

Theory used in the context of the scientific process is a very different thing to how it is used in general conversation. Many scientific theories are used on a daily basis - relativity for example.

For an excellent resource refuting much of the critisism levelled at evolution by religion I suggest you have a look at http://www.talkorigins.org/

And don't confuse evolution with abiogensis and many people seem to want to do, they are very different things.

TimmyboyWRX

A theory in science is generally something that cannot be disproven, and has been experimentally proven to be correct, it is different from a scientific law however, but it isnt a 'theory' in the normal sense of the word, because anyone can come up with a theory to explain anything, but it wouldnt be used in that sense in a scientific context like darwins theory, or lamarks theory etc..

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

i agree i think it is going to be down to the youth of today to lead us into a coexistent life. i've been taught these values by my parents and in the mosques by the imams. your totally right Islam is a way of life and helps me in loads of situations. researching myself into the religion also helps alot in understanding what its about.
I think the Community as a whole does actually condemn the bombings but the media don't exactly portray this to the general public. Ever since 9/11 the sermons on friday always include the imam condemning extremism and violence, again i speak from personal experience but, i have NEVER heard an imam promote this kind of behaviour but every time it is condemned and highlighted that this is not Islam. Again i believe i speak for many of the young muslims in London when i say that Muslim Youth (from my experiences) are not behind, or believe this kind of behaviour at all. Living in London where there is such a diversity in different cultures people are so open minded. if you go leicester square on a saturday night you'll see what i mean, people of every background and culture are there. most of the terrorists are based out of london in arears where there is a lot of segregation, this can disillusion the young people like you and me and theyre subsequently brainwashed into these acts of horror.
I think its hard to get these kind of people out of the community as they dont air their views or mix with the mainstream community. Many recruiters aim at recruiting young people who have little prospects or are involved in crime etc....they will talk one to one or call the young muslims and take them on a trip for a few days to build their "dawah"-islamic belief/Knowledge. this is when the extremists have the time to recruit/brainwash the Young people. they are already dissiliusioned with their lives and the radicals just take advantage of this. These type of people are easier to recruit and manipulate. They are given an opportunity to go straight and promised paradise and whatever they wish for if they give their life in the name of Islam. as they are living in down trodden areas where prospects are low and unemployemnt is high, they are easily "bought" with the false promises by the radicals.

I think what many people dont understand is that Islam is not against any other religion but in the Koran it states that the Torah, and book of psalms from the old testemant are also the word of God and to respect and also find out about these religions.
It probably is beacuse your still young that your open minded and haven't taken the view of many more from this site. It is refreshing to see that there is hope for a way forward as not everyone is condemning Islam.

OllyK

Brave words my friend! I'd prefer "has consistently been shown to be correct through repeated experimentation and has not yet been disproven", but that's nit picking!

If you frequent the JREF or talkorigins boards you'll find "it's just a theory" is one of the most old hat commonly used and flawed attacks on evolution by the various religious groups.

Gymbal

Moses, (my ancestors are better than your ancestors..........)
Where was China and Aztec science >2000 years ago?
Or do they not count?

Who needs progress?

OllyK

And the Egyptians

TimmyboyWRX

Id say i agree entirely with you on the point that it is often the young people from less privelidged backgrounds who are at the forefront of the terror attacks commited in the name of Islam. The majority of arrests occur around places like inner city birmingham etc, where conditions are not favourable to alot of people growing up, be they white, asian, muslim or whatever.

How many young professional muslims can you see taking up arms against the country they live in? How many Muslim sports people do we have representing England ( Saj Mammhood and Amir Khan being just two off the top of my head) ?

I am a young professional who has grown up around a culture of open mindedness and tolerance, i lived when i was at uni in an area where all the shops were muslim and used to chat to chop owners about Ramadan etc.. and never really took notice of the religious differences, it was all about getting along as part of a town community. This is why i dont feel resentment towards Muslims in the street, as they are like you or I, just people going about their business.

It is the extremists that worry me ( and beleive me im just as scared of the bible belt american christian findamentalists with their 'i have a right to carry a gun' etc.. attitude!) And as long as their are voices of reason like your own imam of which you speak i think there is a hope for integration, but it has to come sooner rather than later for the sake of everyone, before this minority ruins the name of Islam, and more importantly, causes division amoungst British people in Britain who previously lived in harmony.

moses

lol if u wanna go that far, my ancestors were still better

u know who my ancestors r

the assyrians
babylonians
persian empire
egyptians
hindu kings of thousands of yrs ago
buddhists from its original source
hittites
u name it , their the ancestors of the muslims including chinese descendants too haha, u cant beat that

did u know the chinese lad who went to america before columbus or discovered america woz a chinese muslim

TimmyboyWRX

And Islam isnt the oldest religion, far from it, so im sure that egyption and other scientifically based cultures discovered astronomy before Islam, but due to lack of communication between distant nations that is why neither knew of the other

KiwiGTI

Moses and R4LLY,

We are getting into semantics now with evolution. OK, it's called a theory but then when this theory is used in real life studies and experiments everything behaves as predicted by the theory. There are countless studies on genetics, birds, insects, fish, bacteria etc that fully support evolution by animals.

I completely reject the Koran as a piece of fictitious work and pity you for your misguided beliefs.

The Koran is largely unoriginal, copied from other historical events and documents. It is a complete creation of Mohammed's mind, intended to brainwash it's followers.

If indeed it was the word of God why does it contain so many falsities, lies and contradictions?

http://www.secularislam.org/
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/inde....org/index.php
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#internal
http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv6.html#CH6

moses

look here

long time before columbus and check oot his map


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4609074.stm

OllyK

Indeed - Islam is one of the youngest religions, dating back to 622 AD. With Christianity, Judaism, Bhuddism and many others pre-dating it.

moses

kiwi lol so full of crap mate, u should try answering christianity too

and the koran isnt copied coz why should it copy something less and silly


your an ardent enemy of islam and after all the evil propaganda against islam, unlike any other religion , its still gets more converts than any bible thumping or any other religion in the world and majority of the converts now r from the white race unlike blacks and latinos from the past

its the religion of mankind and will supercede them all

thats why the enemies plan to destroy it and incite hatred against something they fear

lol its happened for 1400 yrs and it destroyed romans, consantine and the crusades and mongols

and nothing u will do or harm u do will ever destroy it

coz of the aggression of your kind of evil twisters, more muslims r becoming practising muslims and making them stronger in faith

unlike the jew who walked into the whitemans gas chambers, islam doesnt, it fights back and u give muslims peace, they will give u peace, if u dont, u will get it back

OllyK

Hey I've got a map here of the USA from the UK that says it was copied from one dated 1327 - so actually we discovered it. That's hardly a convincing article moses - you can do better than that!

There are also claims the Irish were there way before either as well!

moses

and also most muslim countries r not even 50 yrs old yet, their the babies of the world


once free from the whitemans clutches, they still continue to be held slaves via the dictator muslim leaders controlled by the west, so theirs no freedom yet

OllyK

There are equivalent sites for Christianity and Judaism pointing out all the flaws, contradictions etc in their texts as well.