wez_sti

If space is infinite (which it has to be surely as what would there be other than space) could there not be infinite numbers of universes that have gone through the big bang and had the same series of coincidences to produce life on this planet?

And assuming these big bangs could take place at any time, i.e. billions, even trillions of years before ours, could there not be an infinite number of intelligent species out there? And could it not be possible that these species, millions of years in front of us technologically wise would have grasped the art of using worm holes or faster than light propulsion (impossible according to Einstein) and decide to come visit/ take over?

Chances of a civilisation getting to that stage without wiping itself out must be a billion to one, but if you gamble enough times you will win eventually no matter what the odds!

Just thinking out loud really, space has always fascinated me! And 'infinity' just makes my mind boggle!

Wez

milo

most experts agree that space is finite

davegtt

You are not alive, its just one big dream

wez_sti

ooooooh, follow the white rabbit!

Actually read a theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality

that says either

1)the human race will never reach a level of technology where we can run simulations of reality so detailed they can be mistaken for reality;
or
2)races who do reach such a level do not tend to run such simulations;
or
3)we are almost certainly living in such a simulation

not quite sure how he draws that conclusion though.

he does explain, but doesnt quite add up for me.

I dont see how 'nothingness' can end?

and if it did, who's to say the might be more 'nothingness' further along???

Daz34

No it's one million according to the Drake equation, I seem to remember.

PS Smoking week in the day is a bad idea

wez_sti

I'll try to only smoke week on the weekends


The Drake equation is completely flawed IMHO, too many variables. Plus, i believe the number of potentially life supporting planets to be infinite, therefore, the amount of intelligent life to be infinite...

akshay67

some physicists say that there actually must be infinite universes to cover the infinite possibilities of an event happening. E.g. in one universe you caught the train and in another you missed it and then the consequences/outcome of each event would be different in each universe.

MJW

Yes there could be an infinite number of intelligent species out there but what most people fail to take into account is the timespan - humanity, in the grand scheme of things has only been around for the blink of an eye, and the chances of other species being discovered during the same timeline are probably more mind-boggling to comprehend than the distances involved.
Also I think that scientists have proved that space is not just 'nothingness' and a vacuum as previously thought, but consists of particles called dark matter (or something). But then this begs the question, if space is finite and has an 'edge' as such, what's outside the edge ??

wez_sti

Valid point MJW, that’s what interests me the most I think, knowing you'll never know (if you see what I mean!)

I do see it’s hard to put into context the distances and time frames involved.

If aliens had visited us 300million years ago (less than a blink of an eye in space terms) there would be very little signs of life at all.

Chances of a visit with a planet coinciding with the relatively short time span it will support life are miniscule I admit, but..

It’s like that saying,

give enough monkeys enough typewriters and enough time and eventually they'll come up with the complete works of Shakespeare!

Wez

JTaylor

I find this subject fascinating and have done since I was a child. Bill Bryson's book, A Short History of Everything gives the lay-person some easily digestible, bite-size theoretical answers to these questions. There's nothing conclusive of course and equally eminent scientists present equally compelling arguments for apposing theories.

I recall how I felt when Stephen Hawking changed his mind about black holes. Having spent a year or so breaking down the notions laid out in the similarly titled A Brief History of Time, and having subscribed to Hawking's conclusions as virtual fact, it came as a bit of a disappointment.

Doesn't contemplating the Universe lead to all sorts of other questions being raised? The question of who or what lit the cosmic torch paper pre-big bang left a place for God in my mind and then, the notion of infinite big bangs (and multi-verses) stole this place. I'm researching Buddhism at the moment which may prove to hold a lot of answers for me; but then again, it may not.

Edited for typo.

wez_sti

Have read Stephen Hawkins book, and have been recomended Bill Brysons by a mate.

Read Hawkins' whilst on a lads holiday in Malia (whilst recovering from some nasty hangovers!) , was a bit strange reading that sort of book in that sort of enviroment!

Think in a nut shell, the brainiest people in the world don't really know whats going on so what hope have we got!

The fact the expansion of the universe is speeding up always confused me too!

Not a religous man myself, religion answers 1 question, but raises 10 more!

JTaylor

Quite. Humanity will never have all the answers to all the questions although I find our capicity to ask and therefore contemplate these notions to be satisfying. I'm not a religious man as such, but have always sought a sense of inner peace. Buddhism doesn't subscribe to a god, but focuses on the individuals place within the universe and seeks to free the individual from suffering (stress, anxiety, fear and so forth). I've explored all the religions (and I mean all of them) and Buddhism really appeals. It's practical, liberal and doesn't rely on blind faith. Sorry to go off topic.

wez_sti

That’s fair enough. I think religion can be a good way for people to learn what’s right and wrong and how to treat those around you.

Just annoying when its teachings are twisted to justify horrendous acts!

I just find the belief of an all mighty being unfeasible (not saying you believe!)

JTaylor

I also struggle with how religions are used to control the masses and empower the state. I had a Christian upbringing, not bible bashing stuff, but I went to Sunday school and all. First year physics saw me become an atheist and 2nd year RE ("What, so Constantine and his mates made a load of stuff up then, Sir?") saw me turn my back on the Christian church, although not Jesus the man.

I quite like the idea of a 'poetic' or notional god; three letters to summarise life, the universe and everything. Also, I see no reason why science and religion can't sit side by side; a number of contemporary Christian leaders except that Genesis is allegorical. But as you say, the messages of love lose out when world leaders use faith to mobilise followers in pursuit of their own agendas.

milo

according to stephen hawking (iirc) space is curved (round), so doesnt have edges. if u travel across space for long enough, you end up back where you started from, much like if you were travelling across the surface of earth.

SJ_Skyline

If you post in NSR long enough you will!

KiwiGTI

Hawking is a fool.

milo

how come?

KiwiGTI

It's almost proven that space is not round, that it is expanding from a singularity.

JTaylor

Not something you hear every day.

milo

i like the word "almost"

i dont think hawking is disputing that the universe expands. he is just saying it's curved rather than flat, which many other "fools" agree with.

many other sources suggest other shapes - i believe nasa reckon it's a finite horn shape, some others believe its curved like a saddle.

KiwiGTI

Look at the debacle over black holes, the man refused to believe the laws of quantum physics for 30 years, finally admitting he was wrong.

BOB.T

OK, let's say that the universe is shaped like a ball and the Earth and all that stuff is on the inside, what's on the out side?

My mate reckons it's just nothing but surely saying that an area is occupied by nothing is saying that the area is occupied by something, that something just happens to be nothing, so what is nothing?!

hades

That's where you get to the really interesting stuff. Is our "universe" one of many in "space", or do you define "space" as just the "space" within our universe. Are there multiple universes? Is there any reason at all why there should there be multiple universes where every possible scenario is played out, other than to have an excuse for a few films like "Sliding doors"?

As regards "Dark matter" - well there's a limit to what is proven there. We (as the human race) believe we know that the universe was created in a big bang and is expanding. There are a few theories as to whether the universe will continue to expand and eventully just fizzle out to a large dead grey lump, or if it will contract back on itself, resulting in another big bang, and the start of the cycle. There is nothing like enough mass that has been seen in the universe to (a) make it contract again, or (b) fully explain the expansion coming from the big bang, if we apply the laws of physics which we know at the moment. Therefore, a common theory is that there is "dark matter" - i.e. lots of mass we can't see to make up all this missing mass. To cut a long story short, there are a few theories that the influence of dark matter has been observed, but it hasn't been proven yet.

Even within the solar system, "space" is pretty much a vacuum, and a lot better vacuum than we create on earth, however it's not an absolute vacuum. Whilst 1 atom per cubic centimeter (which is a figure I've heard as being the density of matter in space local to us, deep space is less dense) is about1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times less dense than air, space is so big that there will still be unimaginably large amounts of matter out there.

It's all a bit baffling for the human brain to comprehend.

Worm holes, bending space (in accordance with general relativity, which does sort of allow for a variation on the "warp drive") may be feasible for interplanetery travel, but it is possible that true interstellar travel is just never going to happen, hence we've never met other intelligent races. The other theory that more intelligent races are not prepared to reveal themselves to us as yet as we "aren't ready" or are too dangerous etc is equally possible.

It's also true that even if there are an infinite number of intelligent races, one has to be the first and will naturally think "There's so much more out there, I can't be the only / first intelligent race", who's to say we aren't in that position?

Simple answer is that although physicists are forming better ideas all the time, we (as a race) really don't know all that much about what formed the universe, whether there are other universes, etc. It's possible we never will. Similarly, we may or may not ever know that there is intelligent life out there - but IMHO we'll never prove that there isn't.

brihoppy

i love subjects like this...everyones imagination runs riot, not that they dont already around here...

i personally dont agree with the whole quantum universe thing, i think its a cop-out...i prefer to think of a linear universe...its just us and a load of other crap flying around space all held together by the laws of physics...and love...lmao

we can believe what we see because its easy, but its true to say that no-one can comprehend infinity, its impossible for the human mind to grasp...

im open to the possibility of extraterrestrial life...why shouldnt it exist and follow all the theories that go along with it...?

its fantastic stuff though isnt it...?!

Leslie

Space has always been one of those things that become more inexplicable the more you think about it. I think we will always have to accept it as one of Life's mysteries and we will never know the answers. If it is finite, what is at the extremities, is it a big ball with a wall or what? If nothing-how far does that reach then?

There are lots of theories about it all, how we all started etc. but we have to remember that they are theories and not proof. When you consider the vastness of what we do know about it, I think it would be quite wrong to believe that we are the only planet with life on it.

I agree with wez about religion. The basic mantra of most religions is not to control hordes of people, but to indicate a good way of life to their followers. As in all walks of life of course, there are always those who will attempt to use people's honest beliefs for their own selfish purposes. That is not the fault of the religion which is involved.

Les

Maz

iTrader: (34)

The shape of the universe is indeed a perplexing issue. It is finite we are told therefore it has a beginning, a middle and an end. Is it possible to reach the edge? If it is finite then physically it should be. However it has also been said as on Earth, if you travel in one direction along the universe you will eventually end up back at the point you started!

Scoobychick

iTrader: (1)

Every time I look through my telescope at distant galaxies and planets the question of what is beyond the universe always pops up in my head and, without fail I always end up in a massive head-**** situation thinking about it all For me that is one of the attractions of astronomy, it really makes you think.

There is no substitute for the awe you feel when looking at objects such as The Andromeda Galaxy or Saturn. It's one thing seeing them in pictures but a completely different thing seeing them for real. It brings home the enormity of it all, not just space and the universe but our role in it. It makes you feel very small and very insignificant in the whole big scheme of things.

TonyG

Not necessarily possible to reach an 'edge' A sphere is finite, yet it has no edges, and if you travel in any direction along the surface, you'll end up back where you started. The surface (2 dimensions admittedly) is the analogy of our 3-dimensional universe. If you leave the surface, then in our reality, you're moving through another dimension other than the normal three (length, width, height).

Scoobychick

iTrader: (1)

Tony, I wondered how long it would be before you popped up