OllyK

I was commenting on another thread that despite the best efforts of the Police, Anti Social behaviour is at least perceived to be getting worse. This BBC Article covers a survey carried out across the EU looking at perceived anti-social behaviour. Interestingly, one of the points raised was:

As I mentioned before, the Police, CPS, Courts, Prison Service and government need to get together and get tough on crime. TB has been bleating on about it for over a decade and still we always seem to be hearing the Police saying "it's not our fault, the courts keep letting them off with a slapped wrist". The Police need to be visible as a deterrent and be effective in catching those carrying out crimes. The CPS needs to be prepared to prosecute and the courts need to be handing out tough sentences for fist offences. Prisons need to be a deterrent and should in part be self sufficient by using the prisoners as a labour force. Every prison sentence should have an element of punishment first then rehabilitation and retraining. Without the punishment there really is no incentive to avoid re-offending.

The Zohan

Cannot ague one iota with your post.
Yes i do see it as getting worse, I do not think the Police take it as seriously as the should as the cps do not seem bothered about it.
see
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showpost....5&postcount=10
then
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showpost....7&postcount=16

My perception based on my experiences over the last 18 months.

scoobynutta555

What punishments are you talking about? The very act of locking someone up and taking their liberty away is punishment in itself is it not?

OllyK

So taking a druggie off the streets, locking them up in a nice warm cell, where they can continue their drug habbit whilst watching Operah is worse than crawling under a cardboard box at night?

Obviously removing somebody's liberty isn't doing the job due to the level of reoffending. The namby pamby pandering with TV and chocs isn't working, so let's try something else.

More seriously - have the first part of a prison sentence in prison workshops doing 8-10 hours days hard graft, strict discipline, no perks. If they are a model prisoner, they get transferred at the end of their MINIMUM sentence for rehabilitation. If they play up, the hard labour sentence is increased.

scoobynutta555

Being locked up in a cell for 23 hours a day would be worse than 8-10 hours of hard graft everyday. In anycase, whos going to pay for the masses and masses of investment that would be needed for a scheme that you suggest. Incidently, would this cure the drugs problem in prisons, or even reoffending rates, I doubt it.

Incidently, what happens if they don't play ball and finish their maximum sentence. There will be no rehabilitation at all according to your plan.

What's needed is not sweat shops in prisons, but classrooms. The majority of the prison population are blokes that had a very poor education, many can't even read or write. The reason for high reoffending is there has been no rehabilitation in the first place or a program that addresses the real issues as to why they are in prison.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I'm sure there is a degree of overlap, but most of the antisocial behaviour I see these days is drink, not drugs, related. Most of it is also committed by individuals too young to go to prison.

We are seeing the result of a generation that has failed its youngsters and looked to blame anything and anyone other than the parents and the kids themselves.

Ns04

scoobynutta555

I agree, there should be much tougher actions taken to control the feral yoof element there is today. Carrot and stick approach, give them plenty of social activity to do so there's no complaints of boredom. But, anti social behaviour should be severly clamped down on. What's all this crap about kids being too young to know the difference between right and wrong and getting away without prosecution for anything, and being able to hide behind anonymity?

OllyK

Says who?

No reason it can't be largely self funding, i.e. they do productive work. Also consider the reduced cost to society - less policing, less damage to property and person etc etc.

Why do you doubt it? It may be interesting to look at re-offending rates in countries that have rather less cosy prison facilities.

Who said anything about a maximum sentence? I said minimum. If you commit robbery for example, you get 5 years minimum, if you're an absolute model prisoner, you then get go for rehab, and stay there until considered rehabilitated. If you aren't model, the 5 years just goes up. Then at the end rehab.

I see, so because they decided to pi$$ about in school, that the tax payer probably funded, we should fund a second bite at the cherry? How does this encourage future generatations to get it right first time??

As I said - punishment first, then rehabilitation, otherwise you may as well scrap prisons and just send all offenders to college. The need to see being educated as an improvement over being beasted otherwise they'll just pi$$ about in the classes.

scoobynutta555

Try doing nothing for 23 hours a day in a cramped cell. You'd do anything to get out and relieve the boredom, even 'hard labour'.
Tell me exactly what constitutes 'hard labour' and could be done within a prision and would turn a profit, and how this would benefit a prisoner upon release?

Yes it would be interesting to look at rates of reoffending in countries with less cosy prison facilities. Would also be interesting to ask why there was any offending at all in these countries if the consequences were harsh, murder didn't stop when the hangman was around.


Goes up to what exactly? Just a recipie to produce a more hardened crim at the end of the sentance.

Automatically because someone can't read or write they **** about at school do they? Even if they did, so what, it happens. Do you then wave them off to a life of crime all because you don't want to give them a second chance with a basic education. Ending up in prison to learn to read and write is hardly going to encourage kids to mess about at school is it.


There is punishment now, withdrawel of liberty and in many cases confinement to cells for long periods.

What you propose to do looks good for the front page of the Daily Mail, sadly it looks like more of a revenge standpoint, rather than a view to reduce reoffending, and the root causes of offending.

brihoppy

i said it in another thread and im going to say it in this...

prison NEEDS to be a place where people DONT want to go back to...

right now theres security for some, kudos for others and some dont even give a toss because their sentences are so short...

prison needs to be an absolute deterrent...

transgress the rights of another, forfeit your own...simple as that

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

In American jails the prisoners make numebr plates, sew mail bags, dig ditches, and numerous other mundane tasks that keep them busy and make them earn some pocket money.

there are plenty of Quarries around the UK they could get them breaking rocks and moving them form one place to another and back again.

Demeaning and demoralising work that serves no purpose but I am pretty sure that a few years of doing it will take the glamour out of going to prison.

scoobynutta555

Yes a good suggestion that. Who's going to pay for the masses of money it will cost.

And you mention America, ah yes the country with the highest proportion of prisoners in the world, the country that many states subscribe to 3 strikes and you're out. Hard labour over there and prison for life doesn't seem much of a deterrent does it.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

But it might mean they come out with muscles like Lou Ferringo (sp?) I'm not sure that's a good idea It will make subsequent criminal pursuits so much easier. Get them knitting or doing something that can't be applied to crime!!

Ns04

Whoops, just thought, you can knit a balaclava!! Is there anything we can safely train them to do?

brihoppy

ill bet it will cost far less than the current billions it costs to keep alot of them living better than some pensioners or servicemen...!

OllyK

Glad you seem to know me better than I do myself. Obviously while you think this is some great hardship, the reoffending rates suggest prison as it stands is not a significant deterrant.

You're mixing your punishment and rehabilitation, I really don't GAF if the labour is of benefit to the prisoner. We seem to be shipping a lot of work overseas due to the cheap labour costs for unskilled work, get the prisoners doing it.

Nope, but if you have little fear of being caught, and if you are caught you're going to get a slap on the wrist, it isn't going to deter.

I'm sure we could soon work out a scale, add 6 months for a minor infringement, 12 for a more serious etc.

Sort of the obvious learning difficulties, which should result in the child being placed in an SEN stream, why else would they not be able to read or write?

If they are claiming they can't get work because they aren't educated, then fine educate them, but if they have comitted a crime because they can't get work, FIRST punish them for the crime THEN educate them.

While that may be a big issue to you, it obviously isn't deterring people as the govenment claim the prisons we have are full to bursting. Time to try something else.

It's about justice for victims, criminals getting a punishment that actually means something rather than a holiday that will make them think twice in the future and then assisting them to gain the skills to return to society as a useful member rather than as a ******.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Also, revenge could be viewed as a legitmate function of the law!

A good sentence should achieve the following (where applicable)

-Protect the public
-Punish the offender -I guess this is what you'd refer to as revenge, on behalf of society.
-Deter- The offender from re-offending and others who might otherwise commit a similar offence
-Rehabilitate- The offender to -once again- reduce the chances of re-offending and at least give them an opportunity for a second chance.

I agree that the roots of the cause must be addressed, but that does not mean one has to hold fire on effective punishment in the meantime! The most eloquent and accurate socio-economic understanding of the causes of crime will not help us address it if a situation exsists whereby there is seen to be no effective deterent.

Ns04

scoobynutta555

You keep saying the same thing, but I don’t hear what prisoners could be making under ‘hard labour’ that would turn a profit and pay for itself? And who said anything about a slap on the wrist? One of the worst things you can do to a person is deny their liberty, which is what happens now.

I really don’t follow the logic of your points. You advocate stricter and harsher regimes for prisoners as a deterrent to others. Yet the strictest and harshest regime in the West has to be the US. A country with the highest % of prison population and the harshest sentences. 3 strikes and you’re out and execution is in place in many states, does this prevent their system being full to the brim? No.

You keep on about punishment and justice, I see all stick here and no carrot. It’s not about making an environment so bad that you won’t want to go back (how bad will you make it WHEN what you’re advocating doesn’t work?) it’s a balance of denying liberty and making the outside world easier to live in without resolving to crime.

Makes me laugh when people go on about ‘holiday camps’ and high standards of living in prisons, truly showing ignorance if this is what they believe.