Brendan Hughes

I don't think there are many keen gardeners on here, but I'm willing to be proved wrong.

I'm in Portugal. I have a lawn, about 20ft x 15ft. It was scrappy - last year I put various layers of covering on it and reseeded it (1/2in bark chip, then substrate, then sieved earth, then substrate, then seeded, then sieved earth). I was in a rush (before the dry season) and did not kill the grass underneath. I think now that was a major mistake.

It's now very patchy - in places the seed has taken well (low water consumption, nice grass) but in other places perhaps the old grass has taken over (clumpy, broad-bladed stuff; long wiry stuff; yellow stuff; maybe five different types!). I've tried digging out the clumps and reseeding the patches but it's really labour intensive and to be honest soul destroying, at least half the lawn is like that. I've a good mind to poison the lot and start again. I can't read the Roundup bottle perfectly but I think it says wait 3 weeks before replanting?? Should it be that long?

I have an automatic watering system, increasing amounts of sunlight, and good grass seed. I DON'T have time (office work 5 days a week, new baby, etc), a good tool for loosening the earth before reseeding (I have a rotating hoe? like 6 throwing stars on an axle, but only 6in wide), and I don't have much height available - I'm supposed to put new earth on top of the seed, but the lawn is already fairly high compared to the surrounding paving. I also don't have that many weeks left before the hot season starts, and I don't know how feasible it is to grow grass then (perhaps it's fine provided it gets enough water).

In short - Is poisoning and reseeding a good idea? And any suggestions about how long to wait after poisoning?

Many thanks

CharlesW

Recommended times for sowing grass seed are spring and late summer/early autumn. Soil preparation is important. Anyway here a few links to advice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/gardening/basic..._sowlawn.shtml

http://www.thegardenhelper.com/lawncare.html

http://landscaping.about.com/od/gras...ding_lawns.htm

The 'Roundup' site suggests you can start planting rather sooner than 3 weeks, but I would think you have to wait until the old grass is dead, and then remove it.

http://www.roundup.com/

Brendan Hughes

Thanks Charles

I'm just browsing though Google at present - lots on seeding, but very little on poisoning old grass first (except one suggestion of a "lasagne" lawn, lay newspaper 12 sheets thick and then put new soil and seed on top of it - paper kills old grass then rots).

But if any other gardeners read this, I have to share this find:



GOD: St. Francis, you know all about gardens and nature. What in the world is going on down there on Earth? What happened to the dandelions, violets, thistle and stuff I started eons ago? I had a perfect, no-maintenance garden plan. Those plants grow in any type of soil, withstand drought and multiply with abandon. The nectar from the long lasting blossoms attracts butterflies, honeybees and flocks of songbirds. I expected to see a vast garden of colors by now. But all I see are these green rectangles.

ST. FRANCIS: It's the tribes that settled there, Lord. The Suburbanites. They started calling your flowers weeds and went to great lengths to kill them and replace them with grass.

GOD: Grass? But it's so boring. It's not colorful. It doesn't attract butterflies, birds and bees, only grubs and sod worms. It's temperamental with temperatures. Do these Suburbanites really want all that grass growing there?

ST. FRANCIS: Apparently so, Lord. They go to great pains to grow it and keep it green. They begin each spring by fertilizing grass and poisoning any other plant that crops up in the lawn.

GOD: The spring rains and warm weather probably make grass grow really fast. That must make the Suburbanites happy.

ST. FRANCIS : Apparently not, Lord. As soon as it grows a little, they cut it, sometimes twice a week.

GOD: They cut it? Do they then bale it like hay?

ST. FRANCIS: Not exactly Lord. Most of them rake it up and put it in bags.

GOD: They bag it? Why? Is it a cash crop? Do they sell it?

ST. FRANCISS: No, sir -- just the opposite. They pay to throw it away

GOD: Now, let me get this straight. They fertilize grass so it will grow. And when it does grow, they cut it off and pay to throw it away?

ST. FRANCIS: Yes, sir.

GOD: These Suburbanites must be relieved in the summer when we cut back on the rain and turn up the heat. That surely slows the growth and saves them a lot of work.

ST. FRANCIS: You aren't going to believe this, Lord. When the grass stops growing so fast, they drag out hoses and pay more money to water it so they can continue to mow it and pay to get rid of it.

GOD: What nonsense. At least they kept some of the trees. That was a sheer stoke of genius, if I do say so myself. The trees grow leaves in the spring to provide beauty and shade in the summer. In the autumn they fall to the ground and form a natural blanket to keep moisture in the soil and protect the trees and bushes. Plus, as they rot, the leaves form compost to enhance the soil. It's a natural circle of life.

ST. FRANCIS: You'd better sit down, Lord. The Suburbanites have drawn a new circle. As soon as the leaves fall, they rake them into great piles and pay to have them hauled away.

GOD: No. What do they do to protect the shrub and tree roots in the winter and to keep the soil moist and loose?

ST. FRANCIS: After throwing away the leaves, they go out and buy something which they call mulch. They haul it home and spread it around in place of the leaves.

GOD: And where do they get this mulch?

ST. FRANCIS: They cut down trees and grind them up to make the mulch.

GOD: Enough! I don't want to think about this anymore. St. Catherine, you're in charge of the arts. What movie have you scheduled for us tonight?

ST. CATHERINE: Dumb and Dumber, Lord. It's a real stupid movie about...

GOD: Never mind, I think I just heard the whole story from St. Francis.

Alas

Nice one

Have you tried just re-turfing it rather than all the hassle you've gone through?
Alasdair

Brendan Hughes

Alasdair, it's not easy to get turf here, and when you do, you can't guarantee the grass type. I want low water consumption grass (lawn gets full sun which can mean 30C+ for four months!), and the seed I've found does the job very well.

I've had another look through the Roundup site (I keep thinking of Toy Story 2 ) and it does suggest to poison, then reseed. Just one problem, they say about removing dead plants with a power rake, and guess who doesn't have access to anything like that? )

Alas

Shame about that. I've returfed my gardens twice when I moved house as the previous owners did not have much idea so the lawn was like a moss field with the odd dandelion. I've got a big active dog so needed a close, hardwearing grass that could take the abuse of running about. The ones I ordered were a mix of ryegrass(think Italian) which is excellent for very hot conditions.
Or
With your time restraints how about............................




Astroturf

tmo

Are we talking 'proper grass' or the spring board type we have down in paderne ?

Great for doing tigger's

Brendan Hughes

To answer both questions - tmo, I'm talking proper grass - soft, green, luxurious. I've a feeling what you're talking about is what I call "astroturf" - I think it's this stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynodon_dactylon

btw - tiggers?

steffiraf

6 weeks is the rough timescale after round-up. If you lightly rake the bare areas, seed, then water when dry(ish) all should be well. You wont get a bowling green but with careful watering and mowing you should be fine. Grass is very hardy, so you cant do much wrong. Keep it at approx 2" and water sparingly and you'll be ok. If it starts to brown, you need more water. Dont worry about giving it too much, it will drain readily enough. Mowing/cutting/grazing will encourage root growth, hence more grass shoots. Just dont drown it. HTH

tmo

bouncy bouncy bouncy bouncy

How old are your children ?? come on get with the program


The wonderful thing about tiggers
Is tiggers are wonderful things!
Their tops are made out of rubber
Their bottoms are made out of springs!
They're bouncy, trouncy, flouncy, pouncy
Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun!
But the most wonderful thing about tiggers is
I'm the only one
Tiggers are cuddly fellas
Tiggers are awfully sweet
Ev'ryone el-us is jealous
That's why I repeat... and repeat

The wonderful thing about tiggers
Is tiggers are marvelous claps!
They're loaded with vim and vigor
They love to leap in your laps!
They're jumpy, bumpy, clumpy, thumpy
Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun!
But the most wonderful thing about tiggers is
I'm the only one
I-I-I'm , the only... oof!
Ouch!

Fuzz

My old dear (very keen gardener) has just said to do it properly it should be dug up, rotavated, raked level, seeded, raked in with some sand and then rolled flat.

Looks like you have your work cut out!

funny that this post should come up as I was stood on our lawn yesterday looking at the sorry state of it after she rounduped it last year because of all the moss.
I now have the enviable task of having to rotavate the whole lot for her... she was going to do it herself but I think she forgets she's 77....

Andy

Brendan Hughes

6 weeks - noooooo! I can't re-seed in June, I'll just have dried mud until November

tmo, the children are the wrong age range for that unfortunately. (The adults though, that's debatable... )

Andy - nightmare! If you've got to do that every year, I'd suggest to move house!! Have you got any underlying problems that could be addressed? Eg nearby trees that could be removed to give the lawn more sun, drain it better...? Weed And Feed is the other one for moss, a bit of a pain but got to be better than relaying each year.

I'm trying to bite the bullet to poison it now, but have the excuse that it's been patchy showers for the last couple of days and I'm not supposed to use roundup if rain is foreseen in the next 6 hours. I also have to find out where to hire (/cadge?) a rotivator, I'm not spending 200 quid on one that will (hopefully) only be used once.

tmo

its amazing what enough Super Bock will do

Brendan Hughes

Fuzz

Good god, I wouldn't want to do it every year either that's for sure, it's just been a bit neglected for the last few years while we did a patio and other garden areas.
It's been a bit boggy for years and it was inevitable that the moss was going to take hold if left alone.
Now is the time I think, to rotavate a load of sand in to make it drain better!
Just got home from Castle coombe and the old dear spouted up that my cousins husband used to live in Portugal and he said you had to have a special seed that can cope with the harsh conditions out there, not much else grows very well at all.


Andy

David Lock

Brendan - it's only a postage stamp size. Can't you get a fit young lad to just dig it over for you, chuck out the old clumps of grass and rake over before seeding? Throw some fine topsoil over seed (not sure that is strictly necessary) tamp down and water. I expect key is getting suitable seed. dl

Brendan Hughes

Andy, obviously I can't see your lawn from here but I'd look hard at where the water comes in before trying to help it drain out. For example, if you have a big patio/driveway/rockery whose runoff all runs onto the lawn, it would be worth your while to put a drainage channel in. Of course, if you just live in a sodden microclimate at the bottom of the hill with a north-facing garden, you can consider my suggestion worse than useless But with my father's driveway and now my own patio, I learned a lot about diverting water before it causes damage, rather than constantly repairing damage.

The "special seed" comment is a bit general for the whole country, but I'm sure it's correct for some areas - see "tiggers" grass above

David - I'm terrified that if I did that it wouldn't do the job properly - that's more or less what I did last year, and I have a very dodgy result now.

No clouds in sight at present, but I have to go to bed early - do I poison it now, or procrastinate for another week?

Alas

Grab the bull by the horns - poison

Brendan Hughes

My lawn was put to sleep by glysophate vapour at 2230 tonight

tmo

And so it begins ....................

philc

did the same thing myself a few years back - this incredibly tough invasive grass got in the lawn (kikuyu grass it's called locally - good for seaside locations as it's very deep rooted).

Poisoned the whole lawn (about 1/8th acre) and then waited for it to die off (about 3 weeks?).

Then went over the area with the lawnmower and catcher at the lowest setting to gather up as much dead foliage as possible; no way was I going to rotovate or disturb the soil 'cos of the effort of getting the area all flat again.

Then re-seeded - and to get even seeding I mixed the lawnseed in a bucket with dry soil and scattered this.

The lawn has looked good and been low maintenance for about 5 years, but the invasive grass is back ...... (so this time I'm moving house )

Brendan Hughes

Just spent pretty much the entire 3-day weekend (you'll note I didn't use the term "holiday" ) digging out some very dead grass, manually.

Out of about 20sqm, I've 2 left to go

Hope to reseed next weekend.

Brendan Hughes

OK, that is officially an ex-lawn.

Have some finely tilled earth out there.

Wondering whether to put in grass seed, or some King Edwards and a row of bean poles?