RRH

We have been making plasma brackets for a couple of years now, we were originally commissioned to make them for one of the larger pub companies, but we now do them for leisure companies, educational institutions etc etc etc.

A couple of months ago we noticed a bracket that looked the same as ours on ebay, so i ordered one. Although it was very similar we were advised that it would cost a fortune to try do anything about it.

So we decided to sell some of ours to the retail sector and through ebay.

The guy that we bought the above mentioned bracket from has today bought one of ours through ebay. When I asked him why, he's told me he's gathering evidence for his solicitors and considering an action for infringement of design copyright.

My understanding was that only printed media, music etc can be copyrighted, and any protection for this would come under design registration? I am also led to believe that you can only get product registration on something unique and not when there is something very similar on the market.

I'm guessing he's trying to stop competition on ebay- he claims he's a manufacturer but in actual fact operates a sound and light shop and buys them in- and he's obviously a bit miffed that I can sell them cheaper than he's probably paying for them.

However I don't think he realises the scale of our operation, and that we produce hundreds a week rather than the ten or so that he buys in and sells. Whilst I'm not that bothered about selling on ebay, or even to the retail sector, I have no intention of being bulleyed by anyone.....

Does anyone know anything deisgn protection / copyright etc?

Thanks guys (sorry about the thesis

Simon

abbiesdad

do you own a copy right on yours .. if so sue him .. if not dont worrie about the little ****

RRH

I never bothered- although design registration is cheap enough, pursuing anyone that copies is massively expensive.

Gutmann pug

In the engineering world if you have a design and want it protected you have to get it Patented. Thats a costly business, about £500 a time.

HOWEVER and its a big HOWEVER, even if you own a patent people can copy it and make a very very small change. You can take them to court and will probably win infringement of patent BUT the court can then decide if the patent is OBVIOUS, in other words is it really inavative or could anyone have come up with it. If the later is the case you loose even if you have a patent.

So if the brkt is nothing out of this world its not safe and can be copied......

Gary

RRH

Thanks for that Gary- its just a folded steel bracket- not exactly rocket science

Gutmann pug

In which case he is just trying it on. It would cost him big money to take you to court and in my experience not win.

My company have spent £100's of thousands on solicitors, court cases sometimes to win but loose again in the obvious design stake. All we ever do is slow the competition down and cause them some headaches, nothing more and nothing less.

RRH

In my opinion its only a matter of time before the far east or the eastern europeans start making them- and the government here will probably help them- so its a case of making hay while the sun shines so to speak.

Gutmann pug

Dont worry about it matey, carry on regardless.

RRH

thanks, it was concerning me. only slightly though

Gutmann pug

Its a free world....... I would ask matey to provide you with his patent number, see what he has to say

Markus

I think I'm right when I say this, but I'm fairly sure AdamM is a patent lawyer, or at least has something to do with patents, so you could always ask him about this.

Andy McCord

yes he is speak to Adam

Adam M

lol,

just been told about this thread.

if you want advice, drop me a pm, most of what you need to know is simple stuff and would take me a few mins to explain.

Gary, be careful what you say, you might be very very wrong and cost someone a lot of money.

and if you can get a patent for £500, please tell me where as I would start subcontracting!

Gutmann pug

Your the expert but in my experience I dont think i'm wrong in this case ......

Adam M

sorry gary, but you aren't right on this one, not even close.

fyi, you have touched on a lot of a diffferent areas relating to many different aspects of intellectual property rights and thrown them together.

Your knowledge is actually impressive for someone with no direct experience, but you are just a little off the mark in every area enough for it to be totally wrong if you get what I mean.

first of all.

patents protect ideas or inventions. if there is nothing inventive in the bracket then it is not patentable. you apply for a patent for an invention that you believe will give you a commerical advantage, eg. a method of manufacture of the brackets that makes them so cheap that no one else can sell at a competing price. The skill of the patent agent is in drafting the patent so that he hits on the crux of the invention so well that there are no loopholes that allow an infringer to get around it.

In essence if a small change allows avoidance of the patent, then either it wasn't very inventive in the first place and money shouldn't have been wasted patenting it, or the patent agent (someone like me) could have done a better job.

If a patent is infringed then you sue for infringement, the standard counter claim of the alleged infringer is to counter sue for revocation, if the patent is found invalid, then you can't sue someone for infringement so it makes for a decent defence.

There are a number of grounds for revocation of a patent, one of them is patentability, this relates to whether the inventin was novel and inventive. The opposite of it being inventive is if it is considered OBVIOUS which is where gary got this bit from. It is one attack and one ground for revocation, but there are many others that come down to technicalities etc. It is by no means standard to assume a patent can be proven to be obvious as a defence. I can show you many patents that in a million years could never be considered obvious.

What is relevant here is unregistered design right. This is a branch of copyright that protects (you guessed it) designs. This relates to 3D and 2D designs, in relation to their shape and configuration. They need not have eye appeal or be artistic. They are only required to be original and non-commonplace, and their creation must have required skill labour and judgement.

Most importanly, you must show copying to successfully sue under UDR.

The other relevant right is registered design right. This does not require copying. It is not automatic and must be applied for and paid. It requires novelty and for the design to have individual character and for it to create an overall impression different from that created by any other design.