Simon C

Yesterday was a cracker of a day. Went to the cash machine today to find that my card had been maxed out, a biiiiiiiig suprize considering that I still have the card in my hand. Now luckily its only an ATM card so they only got £300 which I'll get back from the bank. However this is a warning, I only use major high st bank ATM's, always check the card reader for signs of tampering and the such (I work in the banking industry).

Luckily I have 2 accounts, so I'm not dead in the water, but I am at Scoobyclinic tomorrow so whilst they are working on my car (hope they don't find anything unexpected that I haven't budgeted for) I have to go to the bank and get this matter sorted out.

A major inconveniance that i could do without, and suprizing considering the precautions I take.


To say I'm now pi55ed off and dreading the bill for tomorrow (I was transfering more cash to cover the unseen). It didn't help that my bank kept me waiting for over an hour. I ended up ringing their lost and stolen number to get this sorted.

Sorry rant over.

Ken 275

The card's been cloned.

It happened to my company CC. I got the statement in and it had Curry's, Safeway and Dixon's all over it. Felt as guilty as Hell. £2.9K worth!

They got the bar-stewardess though...

Distressing.

K.

Scooby Soon!

I have seen one of these clone covers and I guarantee that you can not tell the differance when it is fitted to the machine, only thing you can do is be prepared that this could happen. eg always have a couple of spare credit cards to use in emergency until the others can be sorted out.

STi-Frenchie

What is the world coming to? Sorry to hear about your troubles Simon, I hope it all gets sorted out for you and doesn't cost you anything. Used to be you couldn't trust some folks, now you can't trust machines either!

CyprusScooby

You can tell!!!!
you know the slot where you slid the card into?
Well it should be flat with the rest of the ATM. If the slot is raised out of the ATM, it will be a card reader. I have seen them before. Also look for the leaflet hlders put onto the side of the ATM. They sometimes contain a wee video camera and transmitter.

corradoboy

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...23/ncoop23.xml

Be better when this is commonplace, but with the time it's taking to switch to chip & pin I don't hold out much hope of it being this decade

Simon C

You should be able to tell if an external card reader has been fitted to an ATM. As I said I work in the industry, and part of my old job involved testing atms.

Whats alarmed me is that I have only ever used ATM's with internal electronic card readers (ie; take your card into the machine). So someone somewhere has a dodgey techie working for them.

Glad it was only my ATM card and not my debt card.

Hopefully I can prove it wasn't me.

Scooby Soon!

No you cant! I almost guarantee it!

They no longer just put something in the slot they replace the whole top part of the ATM, If SIMON C is in the business he will know what I am talking about.

As with everything the crims are always evolving and finding new methods.

Simon C

I'd like to see anybody replace the whole top part of an ATM that sits in a secure room with only the screen card read and keypad in the wall.

I am not talking free standing ATM's here, I know how easy they are to tamper with, which is why I don't use them.

And by hole in the wall I mean just that.



Not 1 of these (free standing)

Scooby Soon!

Im talking about the top photo you are showing, the whole in the wall. every ATM i have ever used is either somewhere in the high street, outside the cinema or similar.


It can be done (Ive seen it!) I will try and find a photo.....

CyprusScooby

Well considering that I'm a copper and have investigated this sort of thing, I do know what I'm talking about. You can spot them.

OllyK

Except of course, fingerprint readers are horribly inaccurate. Just hope you don't do any manual work (wears the ridges down) or cut your finger anytime, otherwise you're stuffed.

farmer1

In our local spar when ever you pay by credit/debit card they take a finger print reading aswell, the combination of the two could be the way forward.

scoobynutta555

Ive seen a photo of a clone atm. As said above some of them dont just use card readers, they put a replica fascia onto the existing ATM covering the whole thing completley. Would be very very difficult to tell from the real thing as it looks exactly like the real thing.

Another thing I read was that the crims build their own hole in the wall machine using all their own equipment making it look like a real ATM.

OllyK

So which credit cards actually have biometrics on them already?

DeltaBravo 9

how do people fit this device ?? , i mean the atm i use has a security camera trained on it !!

OllyK

Trouble is there are now so many damn CCTV cameras I suspect most of them go un-monitored.

AlfasudQV

Sorry to hear your news Simon

Interesting how this is refered to as progression. Only twenty years ago, it was criminals that were fingerprinted as opposed to the law abiding. It was criminals that were photographed not the law abiding.
I have installed chip and pin kit and ATM's during various contracts, and have come to agree with the opinion that I.T is not really a progression, but a way that business can dispense with the cost of Humans. (Techcnology has always done this). The cost here is apparent. The convenience of electronic funds was encouraged by business so that they could sell more to make us spend more, this in turn created the consumerism that dictates modern life. This simply makes the turnover quicker, because the old concept of writing a cheque or paying by cash (You paying by cash?? you must be a drug dealer , terrorist ?) and taking about a minute to do this with a member of sales staff is not fast enough for business to accept.
The increased level of security via Chip and pin and biometrics is really being brought in because business does not want to be ripped off. It is of course sold to us morons as being brought into protect us, but it is not. The problem of cloning and identity theft just was not thought about prior to unleashing electronic transfer systems en masse. I therefore have no sympathy for the intitutions /businesses getting ripped off, because ultimately it is us that will be made to pay for flawed ideas such as the I.D card. It was business that created and forced this nightmare and was of course sanctioned by the brainless (politicians of all persuasions)
Rant over

boomer

AlfasudQV,

absolutely spot on!!

mb

Simon C

Just a quick update. I went to the bank today and started the investigation rolling. Its worse than I thought, they didn't get £300, they got £550 over 2 days. Not a small amount and about 1/5th of my monthly take home.

Thank **** I'd transfered cash over to another bank account ready for the trip to Scoobyclinic

Good news is I should get the money back, bad side it will take about a week. Good job I caught it when I did or I'd be cashless now.


So my card was cloned either at the ATM in Lakeside's food court (Natwest) or in Aylesbury train station's Natwest machine (which I've just realised is a free stander (and the only 1 I've used, but does have a electronic card reader)).

Chris L

True, but there are a couple of things to consider here. Absolutely every form of security that has been introduced has eventually been by-passed in some way. This is the reason we now see chip+pin and 2 factor token authentication for logging into your online bank account (Lloyds TSB starts a trial of 30000 users this week).

The other thing to consider is that biometrics are not necessarily the answer to all of this. The biggest problem is that if a database containing your biometric information is compromised, then it is not easy to replace. How do you give someone new fingerprints or change their DNA?

Don't even get me started on national ID cards and the governement contemplating putting 13 unique identifiers (incl biometric data) in one database.....

We do a huge amount of work with the government and government agencies, including the police. Let's just say that the general standard of IT security isn't that encouraging.

Edit to say that I've just read Alfasud QV's reply and he's largely right. Banks and financial institutions only introduce countermeasures when the losses exceed the cost of deploying the protection. Sometimes there is public pressure (such as interest on current accounts - Natwest had this written into their banking software since 1970, but only deployed it 7 or 8 years ago) or government legislation that forces their hand, but generally, the losses have to be pretty high to justify making changes. Until financial institutions take ultimate responsibility (including a financial hit) for fraud, then nothing much will change.

Scoobychick

iTrader: (1)

I'm glad to hear that you'll get it back Simon, you're the third person within the last two weeks that I've heard has had their card cloned

farmer1

None it is basically holding a database of everyones finger prints. So if the same finger print is used with different cards it will flag up a warning.

If a credit card is reported stolen and then used by a criminal to purchase items, they then have the criminals fingerprints makes catching easier.

scoobynutta555

I bet they cross reference that fingerprint database against any unsolved crimes regarding fingerprints

555-Shaggy

Simon, good call moving the extra cash when you noticed.. bet you're glad you did now.. also glad to hear you'll get the money back even if it does take a few days..

Good to meet you yesterday, hope you got through the ford ok. M1 was at a standstill when I got to J29 so hot the twisties after all

Simon C

Just waiting on the banks investigation team to get back to me now. Thankfully I'd transfered the cash 2 days before going up, so that was safe. It was just a bit nerve racking wondering what else they would find wrong with it.

555 Shaggy, was good to meet you too. Ya should have seen my face when Kev showed me my shocks, all 4 were dead I'd been driving around on springs only!!!! Now thanks to the guys I'm on WRX suspension all round

You should have seen me going through the ford, gently in then on the gas to get the front end to rise above the water. A quick emergency stop on the downhill slope after the ford, saw a load of steam and water gush from my front end. Think the next mod will put the intake in the bumper not the skirt. Thankfully the flood at the bottom of the A617 had gone.

Simon C

Just spoken to the bank, its going to take longer than a week to sort out On the upside I asked some questions which I don't think they liked. Now for the cash that was taken on Sat I can prove beyond doubt where I was, the transactions were done in Wembley, at the same time I was at home on the phone (landline) to my parents, so hopefully this will cast resonable doubt over the 2 on sunday when I was at home in bed. Now I just have to worry about living, feeding myself and paying the bills, untill I get that cash back, as they are ever so nice and won't even authorize a temp overdraft.

BlkKnight

Simon,

I had my card cloned last year. It was in an HSBC bank in Maidenhead.

The clever buggers had

- Put an out or order sitcker on other banks near by with what looked to be headed paper.

- Replaced the facia of the machine with a card reading one.

- Mounted a "security" camera on the roof of the bank (one of the black dome jobbies).

They cloned my card, took my PIN

This was done INSIDE the bank. . .

Using that information they withdrew £1000 over the weekend (Fri & Sat & Sun)

Apparently it was reported they got away with 25k

It was in the local rag.

just to make you feel better

/edit

I too had my O/D increased (free of charge without interest -which I had to claim back)

It took 5 weeks to get my money back.

I had to report it to the police & get a crime number etc.

Simon C

When an ex had her card cloned, the bank put an immediate OD facility on the account. Will my bank do it, no. They are going to have a fight on their hands if they charge me for bouncing my direct debits.

Just had a very major plus though. Went into my local sation to report it and get a crime referance number, to be met by a very cute WPC Someone ought to tell her though black bras show through thin white unifrom tops

STi-Frenchie

You know we'll want pictures Simon so set up a modelling shoot