Iwan

Just breaking on Sky/BBC News

What the hell?? That doesn't sound good.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...192166,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4150312.stm

xkellyx

when did this happen???

my parents are flying out on the 24th :-(

Iwan

This morning apparently, links added to first post.

FlightMan

Downside of the "closed and locked" pilots door policy, implemented after 9/11, is that its now impossible to give assistance to pilots, should they need it.

Thoughts go out to those onboard, and their families.

Doesnt look good.

Nicks VR4

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4150312.stm

It operates a fleet of Boeing 737 jets between Cyprus and London, Athens, Sofia, Dublin and Strasbourg in France

P1Fanatic

And what are the odds of all cockit staff (3 in a 737??) having problems all at the same time?

Simon.

KiwiGTI

2 in a 737, but the odds of that?

2 F16's report a plane with no pilot and a the co-pilot doubled over - shortly after it crashes. More likely they shot it down.

FlightMan

I'm not saying its a bad policy, quite the contrary and the type of 737 that Hellios use is 737-800 series. Thats a 2 pilot aircraft.

Iwan

Agreed, having the door locked is probably the best thing for most forseeable circumstances.

If the door was locked, how would you take out the entire crew on the flight deck? It's the stuff of Bond/disaster movies, like they all 'ate the fish', - i.e. pretty unlikely.

If the door wasn't locked, did someone get in and take them out?

KiwiGTI

Apparently a passenger texted a message saying they were freezing and that the pilot had turned blue.

CooperS

Live pictures from the crash site on Sky news now

Iwan

Surely it wouldn't be something simple like anoxia would it? I assume there must be multiple safeguards against the oxygen level dropping to dangerously low levels?

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

How old was this 737?? I very much doubt it was an 800 series(late 90's ) It could be a much older 300 series (early 80's )

From what I have found Helios own at least 1 300 series and 2 800s


Neither have low oxygen safegaurds. It's one of the main concerns that health officials have over air quality on almost all aircraft (737 and 757 being in the list of main offenders ) - with the exception of the masks

davyboy

Aircraft probably lost preassure making the cabin a nice cool -50 degrees C.

carl

Same thing happened to Payne Stewart

Leslie

It depends how high they were Iwan, anoxia can hit very quickly indeed at high level with a catastrophic pressurisation failure. Maybe there was a failure of the oxygen supply to the cabin masks. It will be a separate supply to that for the passengers.

When I was on the VC10 it was regulation that the operating pilot at high level always had his oxygen mask hanging on the headset ready for immediate use. Above certain altitudes he would have to be wearing it on his face for extra safety.

It certainly sounds to be a very unusual accident if they were following normal cabin regulations. Wonder how the passenger was able to see the pilot to know he was blue in the face. That could be an indication of anoxia of course as well as blue skin on the hands. There must also be individual portable oxygen sets on the aircraft.

Les

Brit_in_Japan

From the limited information available it sounds like a rapid decompression and the flight officers were not able to get emergency oxygen, though it sounds like the passengers were able to get oxygen. Lot's of questions for the air investigators to look into, could be many months before we get any answers on this one.

FlightMan

Model was a 737-31S, ex Deutsche BA.

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

I've been told that all airliners have an axe at the back of the plane as standard. Dunno if that is bollox though.

farmer1

Right I can understand the technical aspects of the explanation for it going down.

But what where two F16s doing near the plane and more critically how at their speeds distance etc could they get a (good)view of the pilot.

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

"They where inverted!"

Tiggs

cough..bull****...cough

FlightMan

its those "Maverick" greek pilots!

GC8

I dont usually subscribe to conspiracy theories*, but: it does look as though the Cypriot 737 was shot down doesnt it? The single piece of evidence that makes me wonder is from the villager who saw all three planes together (2 no. F16s and the Boeing)..... moments later the Boeing drops from the sky and crashes a couple of clicks from his house. When you also consider that the pilots both appeared to be disabled and the plane had been maintaining level flight towards Athens you have to wonder whether the Greek authorities decided to ensure that as few people as possible died?

Simon



* JFK was definately shot by Oswald, the magic bullet theory and the sound evidence were bollocks; although there wasnt a plane in the Pentagon security videos was there...?

Brit_in_Japan

Have you seen the Red Arrows? Have seen footage of air-to-air refuelling? Relative speed would be zero and they could close to within the wingspan of the 737 if they wanted to. That would give a pretty good view.

Brit_in_Japan

No it doesn't. The aircraft would likely have been on autopilot. It's destination was Athens so it's flight path would have taken it along some air corridor close to Athens airport. If the pilots were incapacitated then it would have just continued along it's pre-programmed flight path. Maybe when it got to the end of it's programmed route the autopilot switched off and in the absence of any controlling input it went into a shallow dive and hit the first mountain it found.

Or maybe if the pilots thought they were being overcome by anoxia they put autopilot into a shallow dive in the hope that they would recover consciousness at lower altitude and regain control of the aircraft.

I'm sure the F16's would have been prepared for the worst if they had thought terrorists had taken over the aircraft, but from what we know nothing points to them having taken such action. If they were going to take it out of the sky, they would have done it over the sea, not waited until it got close to Athens.

Leslie

If you get a cabin pressurisation failure the immediate action as far as flying the aircraft is concerned is to carry out a max rate descent to 10 thousand feet or below which is the cabin height below which you can safely exist without oxygen. This is assuming the aircraft damage allows you to do this. You would also have been using the oxygen mask. The passenger masks will drop automatically. The aircraft would be descending very steeply and if the pilots lost consciousness it would soon crash vertically, the pilot would be flying the aircraft manually during the max rate descent.

The F16's can easily fly at exactly the same speed as the airliner and formate on it closely enough to be able to see through the cockpit windows.

A major failure such as loss of a window or a hatch or door causing the pressurisation failure would also have a venturi effect inside the airliner which would significantly decrease the cabin pressure below that of the surrounding atmosphere and make the situation far worse. It sounds as though that could well have happened since they were freezing cold inside the cabin. If the aircraft was at around 35 thousand feet, the cabin pressure could have been at 45 thousand feet in the extreme. Does not take long to lose consciousness at that height if not on oxygen.

If there was such a big failure in the aircraft, that is a real worry for others. Bit like the Comet disasters all those years ago. It sounds by the description that the airliner was not actually in a max rate descent when the F16's were looking at it, wonder what was happening. Sounds like the sort of situation that makes pilots wake up screaming in the middle of the night!

Les

Brit_in_Japan

Lot's of unanswered questions.

Leslie, I agree that the usual course of action would be to go into an emergency dive to drop to c 10,000ft as soon as possible. But it doesn't sound like that's what happened. If they received warnings about low cabin pressure (lets assume a slow decompression) they should have had time to put it into an emergency dive and within a few minutes they would have dropped 20,000 ft or so. If that happened, there's no way F16's could have been scrambled, flown from wherever their base is to match an emergency dive from a Boeing 737 and tell who was in the cockpit.

If there was a rapid decompression and the crew were incapacitated through anoxia (c. 15 seconds at 35000ft?), did the aircraft continue straight and level until the fuel ran out? If not, how did it descend to the altitude where it hit terrain? There are no 35000ft mountains near Athens, or anywhere.

They're now reporting that the F16 pilot's saw the (co?) pilot slumped over the controls and two passengers apparenty wrestling for control of the aircraft. If that's accurate, how come the crew were incapacitated but not the passengers? How did the aircraft descend to an altitude where the passengers could take off their oxygen masks and make it to the cockpit? (is it standard procedure to programme descent paths in autopilot's now?) How could passengers get into the cockpit anyway since the post 11 September attacks and the new cockpit security measures?

It's a horrible thought that maybe the passengers were trapped in their seats, emergency oxygen masks on but freezing to death whilst the aircraft flew on autopilot with an incapacitated flight crew. 48 kids on board too

Reality

On the News this morning.


This plane was grounded a month ago over concerns about it pressurisation / Oxygen systems. It was a "Budget Carrier" and there seems to be suggestion that maintenance could be an Issue .

The Zohan

Won't even try to speculate.

Aparently both black boxes found late last night. One sent to France and the other to the UK for examination.

Hope they reveal the cause(s)

Lot of childeren (100+) on that flight apart from the adults - poor souls. RIP