KiwiGTI

Just saw this :

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...691422,00.html

This is the mindset behind Islamic terrorists, don't believe any of the rubbish about revenge for Iraq etc.

How can this sort of thing be prevented?

Diamond Dave

Ship em all out the country.

Suresh

Ban free speech?

If Theo van Gough didn't open his gob he would still be alive today. The nutter Mohammed Bouyeri might have topped someone else instead though...

Suresh

Suresh

That's not helpful is it?
The murderer had a Dutch passport.

GC8

Surely the issue is who we give passports or residency to?

JohnRoly

"...before nearly decapitating him and impaling a five-page note declaring holy war into his corpse with a knife."

...nice, but this worries me...

"Mr Bouyeri, 27, was a well-educated moderate Muslim who was considered reasonably well integrated, before becoming radicalised nearly two years ago."

Perhaps we need to stop all this pc bullsh*t, and human rights b*llocks and get rid of the radicals (who hate us so much, they come here to f*cking live!).

Apologies for the language, but for f*cks sake!!!

OzzyWRX

We should gather up all these criminals and ship them out to an Island somewhere...


...then in about 200 years tme they can come back and beat us at cricket!

Scoob99

iTrader: (1)

Start hanging the *******s!!!!!!!!!!!!

Petem95

You'd have to say that surely a significant amount of Muslims take this sort of attitude, everytime stuff like this happens people say "oh its a one off etc", but it happens a lot, and you dont hear very much condemnation from Islamic groups.

Nothing will be done about this sort of thing tho, we just get force-fed more PC-bullsh*t from the BBC etc suggesting we have somehow turned them into extremists

RedFive

In this case, to his father & family who have been hard working citizens for 30+ years in The Netherlands.

Suresh

Do you actually have any evidence of that, or it merely PC conjecture?

GC8

Having read the story fully now Id suggest that whilst our borders need to be tightened without a doubt, the issue here would appear to be the radicalisation of previously non-extremist muslims.....

RedFive

Yup. He wasn't even very much into religion until his 20's. Booze, women, trips to Gran Canaria ... But he always apparently was a violent person.

RedFive

Of course it's only PC conjecture.

GC8

During the war it was said that 'if you scratch a German theres a **** underneath...'; Im starting to consider that the same may apply to Muslims, to a greater or lesser degree.

scoobyvirgin

Better idea - we'll all go to an island somewhere, Oz perhaps, and they can keep the countries they hate so much but live in

RedFive

Or maybe both are wrong.

RedFive

Suresh, as I'm sure you are well integrated into Dutch society, here's an article for you from NRC about Mohammed B.'s background. It's a bit long, but I'm sure you would not be willing to randomly accuse people of being just "PC" and making things up.

It's not a direct link as it's on the subscription only part of the NRC website, but was copied/pasted onto another site.

http://www.maroc.nl/forums/showthrea...hreadid=146438

It does blow a few preconceived ideas into the water mind, but that doesn't make him any less of a total scary fruitcake, in case your next suggestion would be I'm "defending him"

I await your observations eagerly.

bigsinky

its in dutch. i would have liked to read it.

RedFive

If you're interested, I'll do a summary tomorrow, but it won't do the rather lengthy article justice.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Cue Moses !!!!!!!!!!!

RedFive

Moses reads Dutch ?

Suresh

I work in a Dutch-language environment these days, so integration is going well, thanks. I spent some of my [employer's] time reading it this afternoon and got as far his life story to 2002, which is not earth-shatteringly interesting. I had previously seen a documentary on his biography on Dutch tv (NOS, I think), so already have some idea about him. Does the rest of the verhaal give an insight into the reasons for his further radicalisation?

Suresh

bigsinky

thanks R5 precis will be fine, just interested what makes these guys tick

RedFive

Fair enough.

Not earth-shatteringly interesting is precisely what I meant. A bit of a hot-headed macho, nothing spectacular, playing a role as a community worker, studying accountancy (but failing), described by his friends as having no real interest in to religion, drinking beer, partying.

No it doesn't give an insight. It does describe the events in a way that you can see that he does get more radical by the month, but there is no apparent reason. Not poverty, not lack of friends, not lack of brains, not a bad youth or what have you. Nothing that makes you go "aha, that's what turned him around". "That's where he snapped". Nothing.

What the article does bring across is that he starts to be more radical in his behaviour *before* he drags Islam into all this. Threatening a police officer with a knife is bad **** at 18, and that's long before he probably read one verse of the Quran.

Anyway, do you agree with me that my first post in this thread was 100 % factual and had nothing to do with PC (apart from my mistake in that it was 40+ years instead of 30...) ?

Bigsinky, I'll do a bit more chronologically tomorrow. In a way, I don't think the guy deserves the attention he gets to be honest, but it's a good article as it's pretty factual and not at all "psychological".

Most of the articles I read about the case are either "ooh, the poor lad, just when he got out of jail his mum died of cancer" vs "this guy has always been a religious fruitcake".

This one gives facts and witness acounts of his (ex) mates and people that dealt with him.

What makes him t(h)ick ? You won't get that from the article I'm afraid. An ego as large as Pluto that's for sure. He has no regrets about what he has done, he claims he didn't even hate Theo van Gogh or felt personally insulted, he just says he followed Allah's orders: people who mock Islam should be slaughtered (which incidently is not something you can find in the Quran, but anyway). He stated he would do the same again if he's ever released into society.

He's not even banging on about Israël/Palestine, Iraq, or Afghanistan, it is purely about the honor of Islam in his mind.

Brainwashing ? Madness ?

bigsinky

the brainwashing had to start somewhere. a normal run of the mill guy just dont go out and stab someone for dissing islam unless he has some pretty bad issues.

Chris L

I find so many of the comments on this thread very worrying

When I first started reading GC8's 'if you scratch a German theres a **** underneath' post - I thought he was going to refer to some of the comments written on here - not to Muslims!

You've got to remember that out of all the recent incidents in London and elsewhere, we're talking about a few hundred out of a few hundred million who were prepared to do this - hardly a majority or 'common' is it?

Also remember that in Europe, we had plenty of terrorist organisations - IRA, INLA, ETA, The Red Brigade - all with some form of idealistic crusade, ALL with members who were prepared to die for their cause - whether that was in the form of a suicide bomb or in a gun battle with police or soliders. End result is still pretty much the same.

letdown

Urrr thats bollox. They say that 3000+ nutters in the UK have been trained out of a few million normal. I agree that its not the majority though.

Suresh

Red 5 : from what I saw, the article presents no evidence of his family current employment status or even if his parents actually spoke Dutch. Furthermore, a cynical reader would also point out that an article posted on such a site could not be expected to be a true representation of the original. I could post something here purporting to be a copy/paste from The Economist susscription site and you wouldn't know if that was really the case or not?

One of the theories behind radicalisation is indeed that the first generation failed to integrate and therefore set a very poor example to their offspring ,who end up without any true sense of belonging. Hence the regression to fundamentalism. It's a theory to which I personally subscribe. In any case, it's clear that multi-culturalism has comprehensively failed, so social inclusion and integration is the only way forwards.

Bouyeri is a deffo nutter too, which obviously doesn't help....

Suresh

P.S. How comes you can read Dutch?

Chris L

No it's not - saying you're do something and actually doing it are very different things. You're arguing between whether it is 0.00001% or 0.0000001% (for example) of Muslims that have a fanatical issue or belief. The point is, it's such a small minority, you can't tar an entire belief or nation with the same brush.

Refering back to the Hitler / **** thing - Hitler used the tactics of perceived threat and fear of the Jews to whip up hatred to a frenzied level. We don't even want to start going down that route. Reprisals and fire bombing mosques etc isn't going to help. It just used as an excuse by a (again) minority thug element who believe that recent events give them some justification for their actions - in actual fact not a million miles away from the justification these bombers probably came up with in relation to events in Iraq.

Exactly how would shutting our borders have prevented what happened in London? The guys involved were all English. The wealth of information, especially from the Internet means you don't have to travel to a particular place or country to be indoctrinated.