Adrian F

I dont know if this has been posted before but it appears that the Police are determined to get their pound of flesh one way or another see the article on the Speedtraps web site about his friend this December.

www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/jamlaw.htm

Sorry dont know how to do Clicky thing.

hedgehog

I've been warning about this for quite some time now, though my last attempts to talk sense were described as "tripe."

Unfortunately because of the way the political climate is the government is on a massive dash for control of our movements and it sees clamping down on jammers and also bring in laws to outlaw detectors as a "good thing."

As I've said until I am blue in the face the GPS only systems will remain legal because such systems form the keystone of the government plan to track you, govern your speed, control your movements and charge you for road use at up to £1.45 per mile.

In effect your car is about to become little more than public transport in which you get to pick the seat and carriage you sit in and for which you pay a fortune. You will, however, have no control.

Leslie

Hedgehog,

Looks as thougfh no one will listen until its too late and we have lost the freedom that we have today. Seems as though if you tell someone something that they don't like very much these days, they close their ears to it and hope it will go away.

Head in the sand means big troubles in the future, not that far away either!

Les

scoobchrissy

iTrader: (1)

So what about the ROAD ANGEL ????

hedgehog

The legislation that is being laid down looks like it is going to be quite simple. The government want to use GPS systems to remotely control your car and so can't introduce any law that might make this difficult as there is likely to be enough public outcry without them also facing a challenge in the courts. So systems that use ONLY GPS will not be illegal.

In truth, however, I suspect that the government are not dead pleased about you having access to GPS based systems either and so I would guess, and it is only a guess, that they will clamp down hard on GPS based systems that also include laser and radar detection functions. If a Road Angel has either laser or radar detection or jamming facilities then it will be illegal and you will be feeling the full force of the law. If you have a jammer chances are they already have your name on a database somewhere.

My best guess is that there will also be a significant clamp down on all laser and radar detecting and jamming gear and as you can see they are already gathering a database of the people they want to "discuss" this matter with.

To be honest laser, radar and GPS camera detectors are almost a concern of the past and are merely a ploy to take your eye off the ball. Big brother is starting to watch you and your every move and that is what you should be concerned about today. If you wait until tomorrow you will be standing at the bottom of the Berlin Wall, looking up, and wondering how this happened.

unclebuck

I'm constantly amazed by people's blinkered approach to the road the government of this country are taking us down. They seem completely oblivious to what is about to happen, cacooned as they are in their little worlds of property price rises, more borrowing and shiney new plasma screen tvs.

It's a shame because the only way to stop this happening is by people uniting to remove the goverment from power before it's too late. This country is truely on the brink of something aweful...

Freak

im just about to buy one!
Its a garage door opener .......... onus is on them to prove it- as long as you switch the unit off as soon as you get an alert,therefore enabling them to get a reading- then it shouldnt be a problem.. in theory

hedgehog

I agree UB that we are certainly in a very dangerous position and that the administration are leading us down a path that many people, including a very many on here who you might expect to know better, are soon going to stop enjoying.

My problem is that I'm not sure a change of government would mean a change in policy. I suspect we are now in a political situation where every party believes that it must have "control" in order to remain in power and so the alternatives may use different terms and may even go by different routes but in the end the result may well be the same.

The GPS situation is going to be very interesting and I can imagine that there might, in the initial stages, be a licensing system for GPS speed trap detectors with camera locations provided by the administration. Such a system would work well for them (They need only tell you what they wanted your to know) and allow them to ease us into systems like ISA, road charging, RFID tags for cars and RFID tags for people.

It is also interesting that topics such as this are being discussed on internet forums which, by and large, are populated by law abiding citizens with an investment in society. There are a fair number of threads complaining about crime and police inaction and also a fair number complaining about motorists being persecuted with great vigor for minor offences and infringements. It looks to me like we are the new criminals in society while there is now a criminal class who are almost below the notice of the law. For those people who say they don't mind ID cards and GPS tracking systems in their car this should be a sobering point with very obvious implications.

hedgehog

I would be concerned that there would be no onus on them at all. Most speed measuring gear has video recording gear attached. This would record that your vehicle caused an error which, after some time, cleared.

They would then determine that you were using a garage door opener to pervert the course of justice by causing this error. It doesn't matter what you or they call the actual device in this situation what matters is that you were either in the act of perverting the course of justice or obstructing a police officer. If you had used double sided sticky tape and an old egg carton the charges would still be the same.

Now we might get into the area of "intent" but that is going to be a very tricky area and, quite frankly, you may not have the resources to defend such a position in a court. You will also be in a position where you have a laser detector attached to your garage door opener which switches it on and off. Laser detectors are about to become illegal as will jammers. The law will be phrased such that any device which detects or interfers with police speed measuring equipment will be illegal. Again it will not matter what you call the equipment, all that will matter will be if it can detect or interfer with police speed measuring equipment.

Personally I think that driving around with a laser jammer is a pretty risky business at the minute and I don't believe that claiming it is a garage door opener or a UFO detector will save you from the law.

Vegescoob

I am a name. Not a number.
A simple truth but one which many seem all to ready to accept the loss of.
When will they wake up?

Neil Smalley

As yet there has been no conviction for perverting the course of justice with reference to laser jammers. Pepipoo did mention one guy who had the same thing a above happen to him. After putting the frightners on him for a while the police returned the device and stated that they would'nt bring any charge against him.

Intent has a lot to do with it, as has the actual equipment. For example, The auto cruise control on some cars(jags and nissans) interfere with police laser guns. Will that make the driving of a car with such devices illegal? It's also a well known fact that some perfectly legit equipment will intefere with the police's new digital radio system. Will perfectly law abiding citizens be arrested for PTCJ just because it mess with police equipment?

To be convicted you have to prove intent beyond reasonable doubt, and that is near impossible to do if you have legitimate other uses for the equipment. To really prove intent you would need to be shown to be speeding. As if you are not speeding, there is no justice to pervert. You could then be tried for attempting TPCJ but then the question of intent is even more valid.

Remember A-PTCJ and PTCJ is a crown offence and as such would be tried in a crown court with a jury etc. And any reasonable lawyer would be able to convince a jury not to convict on the basis of a "The prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt it was the intent of the user to PTCJ, which seeing as the device is automatic and the user has no choice, except to switch it off(negating the point of it). is very difficult to do." How can you have intent when you have no reasonable choice?

There have already been loads of offers to get this guy off(he was arrested, not convicted remember) so it remains to be seen what the outcome will be.

In anycase there are better ways of getting off a speeding charge these days, so the use of a jammer is a moot point.
Hopefully we'll have a general election in between and this stupidity will go away.

Adrian F

I think the point is that the Government will bring in a law that says to have on you or your vehicle a device that interferes or detects radar or Laser signals is illegal and then the onus is on the manufacturers to make garage door openers that don’t jam laser guns. If the device can’t be made then you can’t have it. Same as any other device which interferes with certain equipment like pirate radio whose use is illegal. Obviously the Police seem to be focusing on laser jammers as it is reducing the amount of money they make from speeding fines. So this prove intent will be irrelevant as possession will be sufficient for what ever penalty they create be it points and a very big fine or just a 12 month ban or some thing because obviously possessing a laser jammer is much more dangerous than going equipped to commit burglaries or mug some body 

Also I believe that at least one person has been successfully prosecuted for using a laser jammer in Cumbria and the device destroyed and he was fined.

tiggers

hedgehog,

Once again I read your posts with a mixture of keen interest and frustration. I tend to agree broadly with what you say, but at the same time I am at a loss to understand what we can really do about it.

Unlike many on this board I am utterly convinced that a change in government will do little, if anything, to avert us from this policy of control (a point which you do touch on in your posts on this thread). I have long ago given up clinging to the notion that any of the current parties or indeed the political system can provide us with what is right in the long term for our nation, but the problem is that as long as there are those happy to cling to that notion what chance do we have of changing anything?

After our last exchanges on this subject I wrote several letters voicing my concern to various government departments and my MP. Although I have an acknowledgment of my correspondence I am yet to receive a reply to the questions raised within.

I think some follow up letters would now be a good idea.

Regards,

tiggers.

Neil Smalley

Adrian, The guy was convicted of obstructing a police officer. He did'nt know(or his brief) what he was doing and just fessed up.

^Qwerty^

2005 should turn out to be a very interesting year for the Scamera Partnerships. Hopefully the whole system will become unworkable, and we will return to being pulled up by plod at the time of the offence, just like in the good old days, rather than get a letter through the post. Personally I can't see the government giving it up (£££) so easily, but fingers crossed.

BTW: with regards the above and perverting the course of justice or obstructing a police officer, how does that work with civies manning the Scamera Vans (i.e Cumbria).

Neil Smalley

Qwerty,
Thats yet to be fully tried in court. In theory civies can't do you for speeding as they are not police officers.

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm - whats the offence for driving without a front number plate instead of a jammer

And that way they cant track you down as easily?

pbee

as it stands there is no specific law against laser detectors or jammers. Radar jammers are illegal. radar detectors have been legal since the case in 98.

at presnt a bill is being bandiend about with a spinning press release as normal. the press release does not hold water when compared to the bill

the bill can be found here.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...csp#P433_35562

as I have said on other posts. radar detectors are being hunted down due to a certain model (which was withdrawn from sale) was reported to interfer with sky mini dishes ( I should know I offered my bel 990 up for testing whilst I worked there) . and the government is using this as a primary reason that these devices cause all kinds of unknown interface, im suprised they havent blamed all cancer and the 9//11 incident on radar detectors.

please read the relevent section in the bill as it only mentions laser in a different phrasing and does not aim to elimintae laser jammers specifically, allthough this could be amnded when it is passed.

this bill is washy and badly written but that could be beneficial to the government. This proposed law is already being challenged under european law by the device manufacturers.

so once again we are safe on this front for the near forseable future. the biggie is still the PTCOJ charge which at present has 3 cases been brought forward, one pleaded guilty one dropped and this active one.

we shall see what happens this latest guy has not helped his cause at all which is a shame.

At present mine stays in, as it has been for over a year. by the time this gets sorted out I would probably of had 2 years use and 2 years of protection money well spent in my view. Would I buy and fit one today, probably not as it's card is marked and will have to be removed in the near future.

With all the flannel that some people have spread about this over the last few years the situation is unchanged at present, until something concrete happens it is just reaction to government spin from a press release and exegerated by the papers, which is more than likely their sole intention, dont get played look for the facts.

Lum

I hope this new law is as badly worded and wide ranging as previous Labour legislation.
"I have removed my front number plate because the reflective surface interferes with the beam from police laser based speed measuring equipment which would be in violation of the Brunstrom Fellatio Provision Act 2005"

boomer

pbee,

surely the link you gave pointed to text written by children

For example, it included...

...well that is it then! A radar detector causes Sainsbury's front door to open, and obviously hundreds of small children will run out onto the road and get killed

I wonder what will happen if NOTHING like the number of "lives saved" suggested in the RIA lies occurs (after further restrictions are made on innocent members of the public)?

More restrictions????

mb

pbee

it makes an interesting read doesnt it. and how much do civil servants get paid for this tripe. I still get the feeling it is vague and poorly written on purpose. And if this goes unaltered a good brief will rip it to shreds the first time it is put to the test.

hedgehog

Just be aware that this isn't the legislation, this is just the DfT assessment of the impact of any law to ban the carrying of the devices.

The actual law itself will be a much more sensible document and while there is always the possibility of a loophole I personally think they are being very clever in banning the "carriage" of such devices. Even if you have it in the boot in a box and with no power you will still be breaking the law. It is a cunning move that will work well for them.

The interesting possibility that it does open up is that laser jammers could come under the new law and so use would only leave you open to £60 and 3 to 6 points rather than the current 5 years in jail.

Either way they will get what they want and if it doesn't work they will want more of it.

Lum

Hmm, sounds like misleading rubbish to me.
The only way a *detector* could interfere with an automatic door or sattelite TV reception is if you threw it at the device in question.
Therefore I propose to make motorvehicles carrying housebricks in illegal, construction firms will have take them on the train as handluggage instead.
This will help Tony keep house prices high too!

FrenchBoy

These are indeed worrying incidents.

Some of the facts don't seem to add up for me though. One of the stories seems to suggest that all camera vans are constantly checking your speed and if they fail to get a reading you are added to this (mythical?) database.

How can they do that without the LRC-100 alerting you that you have just been targetted? Answer is that they can't.

The other cases also seem to suggest that the diffusers weren't really being used in a 'sensible' fashion. To me the idea is to use them more as an early warning, get your speed under the limit ASAP, turn it off and let them get a reading.

Fortunately, mine has not been triggered on the open road yet. But if it do get targetted I think I'd give serious consideration to removing it when I get home.

Lum

I have not seen an autmatic laser van in operation, but I have seen automatic radar ones. The camera has a targetting crosshair and whatever is under this crosshair ties up with the speed recorded by the radar which is overlayed onto the video recording as well.

Civvies under the supervision of a police officer then go through the video and when a vehicle is spotted with a reading in excess of whatever their prosecution threshold is, a button is pressed and the image(s) go into a computer system, and the details are entered.

I would imagine that a laser van with a video would work in the same way, only when the diffuser is used the speed will read ERROR. At this point they just have to key your number plate into PNC as a warning.
Correct.
Indeed, but this wont stop you being flagged up on PNC. A single error will do it.
This is the correct answer.

I wonder what will happen when the new law is passed.
"Well you changed the law to make it illegal, so I took the device off. I'm not an auto elec so I didn't want to touch the wiring, it's not doing any harm now is it?"

simo

£25.00 Fine, no points . Biggest problem would be if you kept being stopped by the local plod as the excuse ' it must have just fallen off' only works once.

For the longer trips might be worth taking it off thou?

Simon

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

I drove without a front number plate for several months (after I had a front mount fitted) and was never pulled over once) - I had the number plate for part of the time on display in the windscreen - then decided to just put it on the back seat!!)

Saying that the current number plate is a little smaller than legality and I have been pulled a couple of times for that but the Police didnt have a tape measure on them so couldnt prove anything (one asked me if I had a tape measure!!)

£25 no points - wonder if I can do that for the Congestion Charging zone!! (would probably need to take rear off as well - and that would be plain manipulation!)

The key issue for me and why I have laser jammers is that I think that getting done by a saftey camera van at say 60 in a 50 zone is just plain ridiculous and you have no real control over it - how many of us go over the speed limit - unintentionally? - I dont drive fast in 30 zones, etc but on faster stretches I use the thing to jam - I have been past them and left it jamming (afterall I always saw them as a subcontractor and not the actual Police - do they have the sam enforcement powers?) - no-one has ever knocked at my door

Do they simply arrest you on the spot - and do they have a warrant to remove the car....... if I saw police at my door my automatic reaction would be not to open it? - can they force entry? for this sort of thing

Hypothetical question

If you are being chased for speeding and simply drive onto your own driveway can they actually come onto your land without a warrant/ and/or search warrant.

hedgehog

As has been discussed here several times if they are in persuit of someone they believe to have committed a crime then they can enter your house to arrest you and while there they can also search the house. I believe this would also allow them to remove your car etc. etc.

The idea that they need a warrant to come in stems largely from the movies, though is certainly true in some cases. I suspect they may also get a warrant in some cases just to cover their backs, as a sort of double insurance that they are in the clear to come in.

If they are just dropping by to ask you a few questions then they have no right of entry.