SinghSuperStud

iTrader: (2)

Hi,

kinda as a follow up to another thread on here,

a few years of unhealthy eating have taken their toll ! I've got a fat gut and generally unfit, can't last more than 5 mins playing football

Started playing football and taking CLA 1000 and Creatine capsules and doing CV excersies 4/5 times / week and free weights for muscle building.

I've noticed a difference in fitness but wanted to know if using CLA and Creatine ath the same time is disadvantageous as one is for reducing body fat whilst the other apparently retains fat/water.

I'm looking to build lean muscle or at least lose the gut, when I breathe in I can see the muscles lurking under the flab ! Trying hard and reduced my fat intake.

PS - How do I measure calories ? I have reduced my fat intake but worried about the carb intake.

Thanks, Jai

milo

cla and creatine are both proven supplements, so they're pretty good choices. however, they are just that - supplements to your diet.

firstly, decide what is more important to you - dropping fat or building muscle, and work on ONE of them at a time. they are thermodynamically opposite, so working on both at the same time might get you small progress for a small amount of time, but won't get you any kind of long-term success. once you've decided that, base your diet and training around your goals. when your diet is good and training is good and you stall in progress, that's the time to start taking supplements.

until then, the only thing thats going to get lighter due to supplements is your wallet

as for how you measure calories - look at the labels for everything you eat. if it doesn't have a label, find it out on calorieking.com. you still want to double check this yourself, and the following equation works:

total calories = (grams protein x 4) + (grams carbs x 4) + (grams fat x 9)

if you want to post up your typical days diet including your goals and stats, i'll tell you exactly where you're going wrong.

SinghSuperStud

iTrader: (2)

Milo,

thanks for your advice mate, appreciated.

I think i'll concentrate on fat loss as the first objective. I know it sounds stupid but I can see some ab muscles lurking underneath the gut .

I'm currently doing 4/5 sessions per week, lasting 30mins and doing free weights and then crunches, pressups and CV work for the next session. For the weights I do approx 3 x 15 reps of bench presses, pec dec, bicep curl and others concentrating on lats, tri's and biceps.

Diet wise:

As I'm vegetarian, fish/meat out of the question but I have been taking CLA and Creatine, both containing Gelatine so I'm making allowances there .

Morning :
Weetabix (2 biscuits) with brown sugar(small amount) and semi-skimmed milk

Afternoon:
Oranges / Bananas, or salad

nightime:
Subway - Veggi Delite with Honey mustard sauce and sweet onion (6") - approx 3g of fat

or

Chappaties/Curry - haven't had in a while
Pasta - no cheese or anything
or something similar

I'll try and eat about 8pm and then nothing till I go sleep (about 1am). Try to keep meals small as possible but do exercise after about 3 hours of eating before i go to sleep. I do have a habit of feeling peckish before I go sleep so have a banana/orange or a low fat biscuit bar(1.5g fat).

I do my exercises last thing at night although I have read best time is morning as body is more.likely to use fat as fuel so looking to change. I am very conscious of fat intake and I think that's quite good considering I used to stuff myself with anything and everything previously!

Weight : 82.5kgs
Age : 24
Height : 5' 10"

Would be good to find out where you think I'm going wrong, I've looked on the net heavily but I feel there's so much contradictory advice,eg. read that a sauna session after a workout is equivalent to a 1 hour workout according to some study (Mens Health magazine) but also read that it slows down recovery !!

Thanks mate, look forward to your advice,

Jai

milo

make sure you don't neglect movements like squats and deadlifts in your weights routine. as your plan is to lose fat first, you need to maintain a calorie defecit, which is catabolic. to counter this, you need to lift heavy and hard with compound movements. up the weights a bit and lower your reps to compensate. ideally you want to be looking at 4-6 reps close to failure for your compound moves, then move to the 8-12 rep range for other movements. after warm-ups of course. make sure you don't neglect weight training your legs. quads are the biggest muscle in your body, and as a result training them hard results in your body preserving maximum muscle while cutting up.


ok you're going pretty wrong with your diet. you're practically starving yourself, which is forcing your body into starvation mode, and you're not splitting your calories up enough over the day. additionally you're not taking in enough protein. shoot for 5-6 meals a day minimum, and don't be eating bread at night time. make sure you eat every 3 hours, and get in some quality protein with each meal.



so you're doing weights and then eating nothing?! this is very catabolic and you're effectively shooting yourself in the foot. make sure to have proper post-workout nutrition. this is the most important meal of the day, the second most important being breakfast.


fats aren't bad. fats are good. eating good fats promotes your body to burn fats for energy. additionally your body doesn't burn more fat first thing in the morning. work out at the most convenient time for yourself, but make sure to take proper nutrition before and after.


you want about 2200 calories a day to cut. depending on your metabolism of course. you want to split this into about 6 meals per day which is about 350-400 calories for each meal. these are very small meals, but by taking them in regularly, you're speeding up your metabolism.

you should lose 1-2lbs a week. if you find you lose more than 2lbs (it will be muscle), up your calories by 250/day the following week, and if you find you don't lose anything, drop your cals by 250/day. experiment to find what you need to cut, but i would image it will be in the 2200 ballpark.

as for macro levels, a 40/40/20 is a good split to start from. so your 2200 calories should come from:

220g carbs
220g protein
50g fat

split this up over 6 meals.

depending on how your body responds to carbs, you may want to reduce the carbs to 150 and up your protein and fats to compensate. most of your carbs should come in breakfast and post-workout.

you want to eat as clean as possible, which means things like subway should be dropped. instead buy whole clean foods like chicken, oats, wholegrain rice, tuna, cod liver oil etc etc.

mo,s scoobymonster

what milo says is correct ( he is the man when it comes to training tips you need to really work on your diest mate. as you said you are a vegeterian, you cant get protein from chicken, id try to eat eggs. also you should include in your diet at leasst 2 protein shakes a day maybe one mid afternoon and one after training(but this shouldn't be used as a meal substitute). like milo says eat clean food mate no subway get your carbs from brown rice, oats etc

milo

yes... good point... as you are a veggie, you want to be looking at eggs for protein (assuming you're not vegan).

also, for vegetarians, an excellent form of protein is the combination of beans and rice. neither one of those foods contain complete amino profiles, but when combined they do. for protein synthesis, you need the complete amino profile - which is hard for vegetarians to do - so make eggs and beans and rice your friend

SinghSuperStud

iTrader: (2)

Hi Milo,

thanks for all your help mate

Just one question - why do I need carbs post workout ? I thought you used these during workouts and they had a negative effect if not used ? Maybe I thought wrong !

As of tomorrow I'll split meals into 6 small ones, sometimes proves difficult living at home but being at uni all day so am often forced to eat ready-made sandwiches(brown) etc. but will try.

Diet wise, have you got a sample for a vegetarian ? I don't eat fish but will be buying protein drinks from www.maximuscle.com along with anything else you think'll help.

Also - how does CLA feature in my diet ?

Thanks again Milo

milo

carbs post-workout = immediately following your weight training session. your glycogen stores are depleted during your workout and need to be replenished or you risk catabolism.


make your food and take it to uni with you. if you must choose sandwiches, make them yourself using clean food, and use wholemeal rather than brown (brown is basically just colored white.. wholemeal has the nutrients.


no, you dont need protein shakes apart from post-workout. real food is FAR superior at other times. being a veggie doesnt change your macronutrient requirements, but it does mean that beans and wholegrain rice and egg whites will feature in your diet in a big way.


its proven to help fat burning, but only if you're in calorie deficit anyway. it's not essential if you're getting enough fats in your diet anyway, but it's a useful supplement if you dont (despite its expense).

Peccant

Milo - I'm 5'10 with various bits and pieces - is there anything I should improve on?

I mainly eat protein btw and have never tried a whey-hey shake (although it sounds good)

milo

nope - i can honestly say theres nothing u need to improve on whatever you've been doing... keep doing it

SinghSuperStud

iTrader: (2)

Milo,

thanks very much for all your help !

I'll take notes and change my diet accordingly.

Exercise wise, I gather I'm right in thinking CV work (running etc.) is still the best ?

With weights I've also been told that I should do high reps until I can feel the heat, ie. burning of fat ? What you're saying about heavy weights, low reps - is that for fat burning or muscle building ?

Thanks again,

Jai

milo

no, weights are best for preserving muscle. cv work is good for just that - improving your cardiovascular system. for fat loss, its all about diet.

if you want to do cv work (which IS a good idea), stick to either interval training for short periods, or moderate intensity for longer periods. and try to do lower impact stuff.. running is bad for your joints... so either run on soft surfaces or choose cycling.


no, high reps that burn dont burn fat. you're just feeling the blood rushing to the muscle, which is no indication of muscle building or fat loss.

stick to heavy weights and low reps for muscle building (or in the case of calorie deficit, muscle preservation), and use your diet to lower your bodyfat levels.

SinghSuperStud

iTrader: (2)

Hi !

thanks to Milo for helping me out so far

OK today, had a bit of a sh1tty day diet wise. Started with ready brek oats for breakfast. About 3 hours later had a packet of crisps and Honey roasted peanuts.

As a side question - is brown rice the same as wholemeal rice ? Mom went to Asda and was told that the brown rice she was given is what people use when dieting. My mom prepared a few vegetables in oil to put in the rice but I stopped her. Is it bad to get some fresh vegetables and cook in olive oil ? Or shall I just keep to brown rice/wholemeal with baked beans(is this right?) ?

If I exercise about 2/3 hours after eating do I need to take anythin before or after workout ? I'll be buying some protein shake tomorrow from Holland & Barrett probably.

Today I will have had 4/5 meals including the crisps and peanuts .

Current intake for readybrek and crisps/peanuts is :
fat: 38.2g
protein: 19.7g
carbs: 65.3g
cals: 574
fiber :6.7g

Used the program I downloaded from www.CalorieKing.com

What's the ideal thing to eat after workout ? Do I have the rice&beans before or after workout ? I'm peckish but haven't done any shopping yet !!

thanks,

Jai

milo

thats pretty bad bro.. u need to sort your diet out



brown rice is good, but wholemeal generally has more fiber and nutrients. not that brown rice is bad at all.

cooking in olive oil is fine. olive oil is a good form of fats. the only reason why i dislike cooking oils is because its near impossible to tell exactly how much you're getting in your diet. make sure it is extra virgin olive oil tho. dont cook with any oils that can go rancid when cooked, such as flax. steaming is a good way of cooking veggies. DONT boil veggies.

btw, its not baked beans you should be eating. it should be real beans. look for haricot beans in the organic section of the supermarket. dont get the tinned kind as these are usually packaged in salt. get the kind that you have to soak overnight. kidney beans are also a good choice.

to be honest tho, whether your mom cooks your veggies in olive oil or whether she steams them is the least of your worries if you're having crisps


lift weights about 1-2 hours after eating. for post-workout nutrition check the last few posts in the other thread thats been kicking about today.

SinghSuperStud

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Milo !

I'm gonna jack in the crisps, it was just one packet, first in about 2 weeks !! I always thought that aslong as I stay within my fat/protein/carbs/cals limit I was ok but guess I'm wrong ?

I'll change the baked beans for the ones you mentioned. Thought the baked beans was too nice of an option !!

As a substitute for a post workout protein shake, can I take my Creatine capsules or is that a bad idea ?

Jai

milo

no its not just about macronutrients altho they are vital.. its also about where those calories are coming from.

by using up some of your allowed calories with crisps, you're robbing your body of essential amino acids found in good clean foods.

it may be counter-productive for you to eat ultra-clean if you just can't handle it - as you'll eventually binge eat which is not a good idea. so its not to say that you cant ever have crisps or snacks that you like.. just that they shouldnt make too regular of an appearance in your diet.


no they're not a substitute. they could be taken in addition, but not instead.

SinghSuperStud

iTrader: (2)

Hi Milo,

quick question, is starch good or bad ?

Ie. what are the benefits or not of potato mash with veggies etc. ?

Finally, ideal time to take protein shakes ?

I've brought some Pure Soya Protein Isolate powder thingy from Holland&Barrett and it contains 85g of protein per 100g serving with about 4.4g fat. Is this ok or a waste of time ? I figured as I don't eat fish and currently am well under the 100g protein intake you recommended it's a good supplement, I do realise it's not a meal replacement

Thanks bro,

Jai

milo

depends on what you're trying to do...

there are 3 types of carbs - sugar, starch and fiber. most of the traditional bulking bodybuilding foods (potatos, rice, pasta etc) fall into the starch category. for bulking these are great. for cutting, unless you're running ckd or tkd, you will need SOME, but you want to keep them to a minimum.


for cutting, potatos shouldnt feature in your diet unless you want to do a weekly carb-up. if you do eat potatos (eg when bulking), you dont want to mash them as this unnecessarily increases the glycemic index.



post-workout only, and this should be whey (isolate if you can afford it, otherwise concentrate). all other times you should be eating whole foods.



its 220g of protein i recommended for you, not 100. if you're well under 100 and are running a calorie deficit, you will most definitely be in a catabolic state. definitely up your protein intake, but do this with whole foods.

as for your soya protein, i would recommend not taking it. soya protein, imo, is not desirable at all. in one of the other diet/bodybuilding threads i listed some reasons not to consume it.

if you really really cannot consume enough protein from whole foods, then go for egg white powder or milk protein concentrate powder or casein protein. just avoid taking whey at times other than pwo, and avoid soya.

also bear in mind that your body MAY struggle to metabolize a huge amount of protein in one sitting. additionally, proteins are not stored for future. for these reasons you need to split that 220g protein requirement up throughout the day so that you're consuming some complete proteins every 2-3 hours.

SinghSuperStud

iTrader: (2)

Hi Milo,

thanks for warning me off the Soya stuff I purchased. Will leave it alone. I'm finding it difficult to up my protein intake so want to supplement what I eat with a shake etc.

Where is a reliable source for the protein you mentioned ? Would prefer a high street shop else an online retailer ?

Out of curiosity, what do youn do for a living ? Dietician or bodybuilder ? Your level of knowledge is outstanding

Jai

milo

http://myprotein.co.uk

they are pretty good. they sell a wide variety of different proteins. if you're interested in tasting what you consume, you'll need to buy some flavoring and/or sweetener tho, as they dont include this like the branded stuff usually does.

high street stores tend to only sell branded whey (rarely sell other sources) and are overpriced (usually charge £35 for what u can get online for £27 incl delivery)... so its best to use online.

SinghSuperStud

iTrader: (2)

OK ! I think i've finally got it !

Had Weetabix this morning with semi-skimmed milk
About 3 hrs later had wholemeal rice with kidney beans(only thing in the house)
Went gym
Had Pro-mass
About to have some salad sandwiches
Then see what the rest of the day has planned, bearing in mind I didn't get up till late

Milo - is this looking better ? Bit worried about Pro-Mass as I had it at the gym and didn't get a chance to read the figures. Looked quickly on google and seems to be a protein drink combining the right kinda carbs etc.

Jai

milo

looking loads better than your last diet plan.. could still use some work tho.

im not a fan of milk, especially in the current day, but appreciate that you'll struggle to find vegetarian protein sources, so its not that bad of a choice in the circumstances.

the rice and beans are great.

pro-mass is not such a great choice.. i assume this is the dorian yates one made by chemical nutrition? if so, it's primarily casein which isnt ideal post-workout. whey is a better choice pwo.

your salad sandwich is not a good idea.. you need some kind of protein source with each meal. eggs maybe?

but yeah, overall you're doing way better bro, good going.