Little Miss WRX

......as in those seriously into fitness etc and not just go for a wee walk every week.

I have recently started taking a supplement that consists of MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane), Chondroitin and Glucosamine in powder form. (I was informed that they cannot do tablets as MSM cannot be put into tablet form due to something or other, I wasn't really interested in the explanation).

The reason I switched to this was because I had read an advert in a mag about Glucosamine helping joint issues. Ages ago I tore both ligaments in both knees after a soccer refereeing incident and was out for two seasons recovering using splints and crutches for a long time.
I still have problems with my knees, so I decided to start taking Glucosamine 1000 tablets at night.
After three months I noticed no improvement so decided to go for the option I first mentioned above.
For a month I had no improvement and thought I was wasting my time.....that was until I read that it had to be added to cold beverages which I was pissed at myself for not reading first seeing as I was adding it to hot coffee (it tastes like **** btw so the coffee was to flavour it) and the stuff isn't exactly cheap.

I have felt in the last week a huge improvement in my knees and joints in general after taking it properly. Whilst refereeing I haven't felt that nasty aching cramp in my knees as much and I am running a lot more freely.

Question is, has anyone else used this to help recover from injury and how much improvement can I expect, how long am I supposed to continue with it for and what is the maximum I can take for effective recovery?

Thanks in advance.

Michelle.

Steve Perriam

not got a clue chelle.

but long time no speak so thought i'd post and say Hi

Bonehead

A while back I was having trouble with my right knee. It was always stiff and tended to ache a lot. I spend 99% of my work day walking around so it was a real pain in the ****.
My mother reccomended Glucosamine tablets, after a bout a month or so the problem cleared up a treat. And since then I've been 100% ok.
I still take the tablets, but as I now am into the fitness stuff (gym, better diet etc), I wonder if there's any need to keep taking them.

Buzzer

Chelle

My brother in law has had operations on both knees, twice I know for the last few years he's been taking a natural product called "Devils Claw" They're tablets from a health food shop.

Don't know if it will help now or in the future, just thought i'd give you a possible option.

BTW my dog has glucosamine as recommended by Redkop M.R.V.C.S OBE phd and bar

milo

add some cod liver oil (NOT tablet form - the actual oil). also make sure you're getting enough calcium. and ensure you're not deficient in any essential vitamins and minerals.

yoza

You are subjecting your knee joints to excessive pressures.

I suggest you stop chasing around after 22 men in one go.

Oh, and lose some weight.

Turbohot

FPMSL

I would like to give these tabs a go.I have had ligament damage by excessive exercise.

Little Miss WRX

PMSL, I weight 58kg and I am 5ft 6" tall (when I stand up straight. I have a body fat percentage of 14 recorded by my doctor, I am just under a size 10 so do you think I need to lose more weight?

It's 22 men (or boys, or girls or women) and a leather ball to be more specific too.

Good point on the calcium etc because I do take corticosteroids for my asthma, I am allergic to dairy products so I ought to take supplements.
The only thing I dislike is the amount of things I seem to be taking.....my asthma medication is enough, then there is this powder, multivitamins........I am a chemist.

Milo, the powder I add to low fat milk along with some protein chocolate powder.......I am not sure that the cod liver oil would mix well. <creases face up in disgust> I can taste it now.......urgh.....
Are tablets no good then?

Little Miss WRX

My earlier point was that the Glucosamine tablets were having literally no effect at all whatsoever on me. I don't see any point in me returning to them to be honest.

BTW hi Steve.

ozzy

Sorry 'chelle, I have no idea either.

Looking at a few sites, they all refer to Glucosamine supplements helping osteoarthritis and catrilage damage. Not sure if your supplements will chemically aid or strengthen your actual ligaments.

Again, my understanding is that cod liver oil helps protect and feed cartilage in the joints and doesn't directly aid ligaments and tendons. I maybe wrong, but physio's have always told me that the only way to strengthen the ligaments and tendons is through exercise.

Did you have key-hole surgery to repair the ligaments? did the consultant tell you the condition on the rest of your knees? What type of damage did you have - was it an actual tear or did it detachment (tear) away from the bone?

Stefan

Little Miss WRX

Hey Stefan,

Good to hear from you, the actual damage was an incomplete tearing from the bone. There was no full tear and I was told it wasn't sufficient enough to warrant keyhole surgery, nevertheless, my recovery was very long.
I honestly don't think that I paid enough attention to the recovery process, I was too keen to get back on the field and I am probably paying the consequences. The condition on the rest of my knees was that my knee caps were slightly pulled out and I need to do exercises to strengthen the muscle around to "align" them back - to put it simply.

fast bloke

Shelly babes - I've had surgery on both knees, 1 for cruciate ligament and 1 for ruptured cartiledge(sp??). The doc suggested eating plenty of fish and non impact exercise for as long as possible. Apparently ******* is non impact

That was in 1995 - no problems since, but I still take cod liver oil sups just in case

milo

[QUOTE=Little Miss WRX]the reason tabs arent good is because they dose them too small. at your weight you need at least 30g of fat/day, in fact probably a lot more, and it should be mostly coming from EFAs. EFA tabs, like cod liver oil tablets, come in 1g form and it isnt enough. however, a single tbsp of cod liver oil contains 5g of fats. make sure u get the omega-3 enriched kind and drink up

this is actually another problem i have with the government's recommendations - they recommend 50-90g of fat/day depending whether you're male or female and your mass. they then go on to tell people that the RDA for EFAs is 1g/day. they're then confused when people are taking in too much saturated fats and too high of an omega-6/omega-3 ratio. its like.. no **** sherlock.

btw, if you're finding you're having to take in powders and too many tablets, its a possible sign that your diet may be deficient in those areas.

are you doing a lot of running on hard ground?

milo

sadly exercise wont help much... ligaments and tendons arent muscle.. they're tissue.

there is always prolotherapy of course.

markr1963

LMWRX:

I was told by my GP back in the UK that glucosamine and chondroitin tablets were only good for lining the pockets of those who sell them. I was taking them following a squash injury to my right knee (ligament damage) and TBH I noticed no difference. Only thing that really helped was anti-inflamatories and no squash.

Be interested to know if there's anything that'll reduce the grinding noises in that knee tho'

Mark

milo

interesting view, since it's scientifically proven to work. it is important to realize however, that many of these are sorely underdosed. and while it might claim 500mg, there's only actually 20% of that in it. its perfectly legal for them to do this too, as long as they stamp "complex" or something similar on the box and fill the other 80% with worthless crap. make sure that if you want to take, say 1500mg of glucosamine, that you're getting a product which on the label states 1500mg of glucosamine.

ozzy

I agree, it's probably not going to make a huge difference given they're not going to grow like any muscle fibre and you'd see much more benefit from building the actual muscles around the joints to support it.

I do most of my running cross country, which is fantastic for strengthening you leg muscles and getting you fit quicker. If it's really uneven (like a field), then it does help strengthen the tendons and ligaments as well as keeping them supple. I have a condition in the big toe of my left foot where the tendon has always been very tight. This makes the push off of my running stride a bit unnatural and was causing me some hip pain. Over soft ground your toes move through a wider range of motion and for me this has made the tendon on my toe much more stretchable.

Unfortunately 'chelle there's no 'real' cross country stuff in Sydney. I had to go to the Blue Mountains to find some decent ground

Do you do any cycling? If you keep the seat position lower than normal it's great for working the muscles around the knee. Get some hills in and you'd get a great workout with none of the impact from running.

Stefan

Sub97

I apolgise in advance for the long post!

I am in a very similar situation to you Little Mrs Wrx. I have had both my cruciate ligaments replaced as I tore both of them in half playing football. For the first couple of years after the operation they were aching a lot of the time when I was at work, I think it was just the fact of keeping my legs bent in the same position they didnt like. They also used to ache really badly after exercise.

I was recommended Chondroitin and Glucosamine mixed in with an Aloe Vera liquid drink from a work colleague. It is from a company called Forever Living (I dont work for these or anything). My mate (who I have no reason not to believe) told me that the reason most tablet forms of Chondroitin and Glucosamine don't work very well, is that the body finds it very hard to absorb most of the product by itself. It apparantly finds Aloe Vera very easy to absorb, so the fact that the Chondroitin and Glucosamine is mixed in with Aloe Vera means your body absorbs all of the dosage.

Within 10 days my knees felt completely different. I had no aching during the day, and only minimal aching after playing sports. The only downside is the cost, it's about 17 quid for a 17 day dosage. After about a year I decided to switch to some tablet form Chondroitin and Glucosamine that contained Aloe too, as they were about half the price. It only took about 2 weeks for the aching to return, and more discomfort after playing sport. I persisted for about 2 months then went back to the Forever Living stuff, and again, after 10 days or so, the aching stopped.

This was proof enough for me that the Forever Living stuff did what it said it would. I realise this sounds like a blatant advert, but it's not. This stuff made such a difference to me, that I am just trying to get my point across as to how good it is.

I was also told, that Chondroitin and Glucosamine helps repair damage and wear and tear to your cartelidge, which your body can't do very well (if at all) naturally. So for people who play heavy knee impact sports, it is good to take anyway, to help ensure your ligaments and cartelidge stay in as good a condition as possible.

You can find the drink here http://www.foreverliving.com/webapp/...tegoryId=82601.

Feel free to PM me if there's anything else you'd like to know.

Cheers

Steve

Redkop

Get it right Pete it's glucosamine AND chondroitin

anc-sti

Suppliments are only really any good as a preventative aid to avoid injury, once your injured time and the correct conditioning exercises are the core of the recovery.

Stretching is the key to keeping your joints flexible, prevention rather than cure.
I do a lot of endurance training for racing bikes, i use Cod liver oil and glucosamine but also use a amino load product to help your muscles regenerate.
This works for me I've been injury free for years now(apart from falling off occasionally ).

If however you lead a normal lifestyle and are not putting in big miles or training hard (stretching your resourses) there probably isn't any need for such supplimentation as long as you have a balanced diet.

Leslie

Just wondered if it is really necessary to eat those supplements rather than natural food. The descriptions with all those chemicals sound a bit of a worry to me. Do they have side effects which might affect you, if not now then in later life?

Les

ozzy

Les, that's a fair point. I've never been a real fan simply because of their cost. The only time I take anything is during hill runs where I need something light, easy to consume and pack with as much energy as possible. A handful of energy gels gives a better return than lugging a bunch of bananas with me

Most I take is a multi-vitamin tablet once a day and some energy powder when I train. Other than that I stick to basic, wholesome food.

It was military training that turned me into a fitness freak and you weren't allowed any supplements. 3 meals per day and jelly beans or jelly babies for energy was as complicated as it got.

I can see professional athletes using them to a much higher degree, but the sceptical side of me gets excited as the athlete usually gets sponsored by the supplement manufacturers. If you took every supplement from a manufacturers brochure, you'd spend 00's of pounds a month on them.

I can see the point in a few key ones, such as a protein. If you're a bodybuilder, it takes an enormous amount of food to gain as much protein as they may need. Downing a protein shake can be easier to make and consume than a huge plate of egg whites or half a cow

Stefan

milo

yes - real food is way better than supplements... IF you can get what you need from food (example: if you need glucosamine, you will need to supplement it). supplements should be used only when the need arises... i.e. as a supplement and not a replacement.

for the protein shake, most bodybuilders will take a whey shake and dextrose post-workout, as the whey is quickly absorbed (FAR quicker than any real food source possibly could be), and the dextrose causes a nice insulin spike, which is highly anabolic. the rest of the time, it is (or SHOULD be) real food all the way. downing a protein shake at other times might be easy, but it doesn't have the thermogenic effect that food does... and in fact, in many cases a protein shake will pass thru you faster than you could possibly assimilate the protein in it anyway, rendering it next to useless.

Brendan Hughes

Following this with interest. Wife has dodgy knees (I can't tell you cartilage, ligaments, tendons etc) and has some Seven Seas Glucosamine chondroitin omega-3 tablets (G Sulphate 250mg, C sulphate 200, O-3 nutrients 150mg). She also has cod liver oil 1000mg capsules. Pretty much same dimensions as Michelle (but 10 yrs older).

I'm getting the impression from the above that she should be taking 6 a day of each, to have any effect? She'll rattle!