ProperCharlie

Hypothetical situation:

Somone is dismissed, but the proper procedure is not exactly adhered to. The reasons for the dismissal are genuine.

They get 2 weeks pay upon termination of employment.

They then take legal advice and decide they have a case for an Industrial Tribunal.

Any idea what they could get for this, roughly?

There is no discrimination involved.

Brendan Hughes

How long were they employed for beforehand?

fast bloke

Can you be more specific about the reasons for dismissal?

Stueyb

Wouldnt happen to be a salesperson, hypothetically ?

ProperCharlie

They had (hypothetically) about 2.5 years service. The reason for dismissal was persistently starting late and knocking off early. They had been warned previously.

No, not a hypothetical salesperson.

fast bloke

was it a verbal or written warning

ProperCharlie

written - they were supposed to get a final written after that, but in between the letter being drafted and issued, they had been late more, so the final stage was missed out and they were told to go there and then.

fast bloke

basically the employer needs to prove that the employee was aware he/she had no more chances, so a final warning is usually required. (The first warning can be the final one if needs be)

unfortunately without this the employer usually gets shafted because it is considered discrimination for sacking someone just cos they a lazy feker

ProperCharlie

yeah - i hypothetically accept that correct procedures were not followed. basically what i want to know is what sort of a pay-off will be likely needed to avoid the IT. his solicitors are asking for a proposal to settle "under the terms of a compromise agreement". if i get our hypothetical solicitors involved, it's just going to end up costing a hypothetical sh*tload more money on their fees.

Brendan Hughes

sorry PC, but that last is reminding me of various episodes of the Goons - "here is a photograph of a five-pound note."

ProperCharlie

sorry brendan - i hypothetically got a bit carried away, there.

fast bloke

offer lazy git their job back, re-instated as a 2.5 year employee with a 20% pay increase, but on a new contract that says lateness and skiving is now gross misconduct and will result in immediate sacking. Lazy git will say no, but when it goes to tribunal they will look favourably at your attempt to give lazy git a second chance. (My brother in law did exactly this. He gave no written warnings - one verbal then fired)- lazy git refused and ended up getting nothing from the tribunal.

Also the point of a tribunal is that you don't need to get solicitors involved. You can represent yourself, but if you agree to go to tribunal instead of court you must abide by the decision - ie - there is no appeal

ProperCharlie

cheers - i guess it would be advantageous to offer the choice of either job back or small amount of money to go away.

lightning101

I take it this is in accordance with the new law for resolving disputes which came in on the 1st october this year.


It is fully explained here www.dti.gov.uk/resolvingdisputes

Basically it is meant to be 10% of their annual wage I think for you making a mistake in not following the basic 3 stage process e.g.

1. Put it in writing

2. Meet and Discuss

3. Appeal.

camk

has he appealed internally and it been turned down yet ? If no they re hire at the appeal and write final warning up again. Wait for another late episode and bingo.

ProperCharlie

lightning - that legislation hadn't come into effect at the hypothetical time of the events .

the main point of contention seems to be that they weren't fomally summoned to a disciplinary hearing, and therefore weren't offered the chance to be accompanied.

Jo Peters

Lightning 101, you beat me to it. The new laws which came in on 1st October must be strictly adhered to. All employees in every company should have been informed of this new law - we sent it round as a memo to all our employees - as it is classed as "Key information for employees".

Jo

ProperCharlie

We classed it as "don't let them find out about this, for chist's sake!"

(just joking )

2000TLondon

Another issue in going to court will be the fact these tribunals are heavily weighted to the employee / ex-employee, and by all accounts it is the company who has to dis-prove the employees claims, so that added to the actual failure to follow proceedure doesn't bode well for successful outcome......

Jo Peters

LOL - know what you mean

Jo

ProperCharlie

It makes me laugh that there is all this legislation to protect the employee from being dismissed unfairly, but where's the legislation to protect me from going bust because no-one could be bothered to do their job properly?

The Zohan

IMHO a tribuneral is likely to favour the employee/person not the company, if the company has followed proceedure then no probs, if not like in this case they may well end up having to fork out up to the equivilant to a years salary.

MooseRacer

It could be said that you didn't do your job properly by not giving the correct number of warnings etc

That said, I understand your frustration. A tribunal would most likely find in his favour.
Depending on his salary, the hardship caused, whether he's got another job by the time the tribunal's heard (he must show he is making every effort to find one) etc etc the award can be upto a years salary or 52k (last time I checked).

It is very unusual for it to be that high though. It depends what you call a 'small' amount of money, but I usually find a 4 figure sum will get rid of most people

ProperCharlie

Yeah, I admit as much. However, the way the procedures are set up make it very time consuming for a business like ours. it isn't as though everyone is at the same place every day, which makes meetings etc more complicted and disruptive to organise. We don't have the luxury of dedicated human resources department to sort out all this cr*p, so we have to make time out of our normal duties (ie reading SN ) to deal with disciplinary matters.

It isn't unreasonable to ask someone to get to work on time and do some work when they get there, is it?

btw - 4 figures... exactly what i had in mind . that only buys 4 hours with our legal bods so it's pretty cheap at the price.

richieh

wifes in a tribuneral at the mo to get holiday pay and for disability discrimination
acording to her solicitor its gonna cost her employer around £15-25k to go through the tribuneral route in legal fees etc before any awards take place and they may have to per her costs as well
richie

lightning101

or a 5 figure sum:


10 + 8 + 12 + 20 + 3

= £53


Not bad going - just remember to omit the final line.