Paul N P

Would really appreciate any good advice concerning a major speeding matter which happened November 2003.

Got caught @ 10:30pm doing 128mph on the M4 near Port Talbot, Wales, by hand held laser device. Bit of background info..

1/. I've got 5 points already on my license, from offence earlier that year (50mph in a 30mph zone)

2/. Mitigation: light traffic, dry weather, good visibility, under control of vehicle, momentary lapse of judgement, need use of car for job, big stress at work due to involvement in redundancy announcement 2 days before & I'm the only source of comfortable transport for missus with long term back injury

3/. 3 witnesses in car to confirm most of the above & letters from work & also missus' GP to confirm the rest

My solicitor doesn't seem to want to offer a judgement on the likely length of ban I'm going to get. He will be in court to represent me though, good for him to charge for services without offering opinion on the damage

**** Any views on the ban I'm going to get????? ****

Also my court appearance has now been adjourned 13 times since early March awaiting information requested from the CPS...calibrations certs, manufacturer's manuals etc.

Device I was clobbered with was apparently Speedace, there does seem to some confusion by police/CPS as to the calibration status of this bit of kit.

**** Does anyone know if this device needs regular calibration, and if so what is the frequency? ****

All advice given will be very much appreciated. I know I've done wrong here, but the constant adjournments mean my nerves have been up & down virtually every 2-3 weeks over the last 5 months and I find the whole thing a complete p*ss take on behalf of the CPS/police.

I sold my beloved STi7 just before 1st court date on the anticipation of a lengthy ban and have been forced to survive using EasyRentalCar on a fortnightly to forthnightly basis.

Thanks in anticipation of some useful feedback.

Paul

vava voom

iTrader: (6)

Hello mate it looks like you f*cked as no matter what you say to the courts they will say under no circumstances should you be doing that kinda speed...and the gun used may not be accurate but will not be somthing that can help you.

Anything over 100 is 6 months ban..no arguments.

One question are you, your mrs any family member registered disabled?

Spoon

Paul- I got away with 6 points and a £450 fine plus costs and solicitors costs for 133mph.

Having said that I think you 5 points for a speeding offence earlier on in the same year will tip the balance to a ban. Plus it was a 30mph restriction which they'd frown upon more than anyother I suspect.

Make sure they know that you sold the *offending* vehicle, it may help.

Good luck.

Senior_AP

Got to admit. You're only about 15mph off of the record top speed caught in the UK. Don't wanna sound harsh but IF you were caught you will get atleasy 6 months. Could potentially be upto 2 years.

If I had to make a bet I'd say a 1 year ban.

Spoon

Totally incorrect as mentioned here many times.

Paul N P

There doesn't appear to clear Magistrate's guidance about this sort of thing.

Tends to be driven by their mood on the day and the quality of the spiel by the brief.

Unfortunately none of us are registered disabled, but when this eventually kicks off, its gonna feel like it

Some guy in an EVO got caught doing 135 in same place 1 year before and got 6 month & £600 got convisted in Aug for previous Nov offence.

When this thread gets going, I'll tell some of the history & bull recieved from CPS & Police to date, makes interesting reading.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Why the adjournments?

You will (likely) be banned.

1st ban is UPTO 6 months

2nd ban inside 3 years (pts period) is MINIMUM 6 months to 1 year

You will be sentanced on the current offence then if that is points, they will be added to the sum to see if that reflects a ban.

Your 5 pts will be cleared from your licence to count towards new offences when you get your licence back BUT you will have a BA10 on your licence for 4 years coming off after 5

Your best mitigation for a short time is your wife & her disability. Get it backed up by a doctor etc

tiggers

Hold on here. If they've adjourned this case 13 times due to the CPS not having everything in place peoperly then:

a) they sound like they have a problem with the evidence
b) can they just keep adjourning it like this as 13 times is ridiculous. Surely there has to come a point where they either have to present a case or call it quits.

I'm no expert, but all in all it sounds like they've got problems with the evidence and surely your lawyer can exploit that.

Like I say I'm no expert, but it does seem a little carzy to me.

Good luck,

tiggers.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

You're incorrect I'm afraid on both counts.

See my post above for speeding ban tariffs & the highest top speed recorded is well over 160 - can't recall exact amount - for a biker on the M40. Well off...

Spoon

Probably a more apt word than crazy too as it does appear a little shít in the build up.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Oh & he was clobbered for Dangerous Driving in order to maximise his ban potential...

Paul N P

What makes things even worse is that after selling my Scoob end-Feb, this is the first time I've been able to come on SN due to the distress of having to lose the motor

I can hear a Scoob from 5 miles away now, it used to only 1 mile when I had mine.

No one where I live had a Scoob before & now there a P1 & white STi8, just down the road. I have to look away when they appear, it hurts too much...sh*t happens

tiggers

F**king laptop keyboards

As a slight aside I always wished Ford had produced an Si version of the Ka

Paul N P

Puff,

I'm sure I read a few years ago about some bloke in a Merc got caught on the M1 at 172mph & got off with a reasonable ban coz he was a drag racer by profession, they only caught him coz he stopped to fill up with fuel.

Then again, it may have been the Sun, so probably complete bollox.

Senior_AP

I thought for a car was 148 or something in a **BMW** of some description?? Thought that stood for ages??

Fair play if I'm incorrect, cheers for pointing it out.

Aren't they different with cars when it comes to speed (punishment) over bikes????

Spoon

And driven by a Mr Modo perhaps.

Paul N P

Adjourned numerous times awaiting calibration certification, then police claim device doesn't need calibration, so now adjourned 3-4 times awaiting details of manufacturer from CPS, so this point can be clarified.

Today I find out that device was apparently calibrated (claimed not proven) 5 months previously despite the previous statement from CPS that calibration wasn't necessary, manufacturer has now been advised along with type of device.

After 10 mins www research, specified manufacturer doesn't actually market specified device and specified device looks nothing like the one I was clobbered with.

I'm not sure if I can sue Police/CPS for undue mental tortue, but this is affecting my life, I'm guilty as charged & willing to pay the penalty, but this is just taking the p*ss.

Spoon

Paul NP- Put it into prospective, it's only a speeding offence that may or may not come to court.

There are much bigger catastrophes that could happen. You have your health, keep it.

Chill a bit, it really isn't worth it.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

There is precedent for having a case heard with reasonable speed. I'm not a brief but it also sounds that maybe a 2nd opinion on your situation might be worthwhile. Must also be costing you a fortune in (if nothing else) time off work, travel to/from court etc etc.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Mr Jensen Button got nicked for 143 in a BMW 330/530 diesel - maybe? 1999 I think

Bikes/cars/trucks/rollerblades - are all technically dealt with under the same tariffs.

Senior_AP

My brother does cycling. He's been flashed by many a speed camera. Whooops!!

I know technically its the same rule that applies but in court the attitudes vary I'm sure. I bet if you were caught doing 100mph on a bike by a traffic copper the punishment would be somewhat lean than if you were in a car.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

A friend a number of years ago managed to have his court stuff come through the with the vehicle marked as a car... a Honda CBR900RR .. lol.. think that helped.

hedgehog

Did they actually stop you at the scene or did they just take a picture and send you an NIP later on? I guess from your tone that they stopped you but it's hard to tell.

If the CPS are putting this off then my guess is that there are big problems with their evidence. Ask for total disclosure, get over to www.pepipoo.com and follow the information there. Most devices, even handheld ones, have video recording gear attached these days so demand the FULL video of the FULL shift so you can get it analysed. I am aware of one case where this video was actually supplied and showed a dog, much earlier than the defendants incident, with a speed reading of 70mph. This case never went to court as the CPS withdrew.

The other thing you may want to consider is getting another solicitor with lots of experience of traffic offences. Those who work "general" stuff are unlikely to have the full story and while a specialist will be expensive he might save your neck. Worth considering that people have gone to prison for similar speeds.

If you were not stopped at the scene then perhaps the following might give you some hope, again you'd need a good solicitor to pull this off but this chap represented himself last week and I think you will agree that his defence was excellent:

>I must admit I was not sure how things were being interpreted by the
>magistrates and I only really had my word for the fact it was not my car.
>
>I did call the police investigator who complied the report put before
>the court (the report was based on photos I had supplied vs. the photo
>from the speed camera)
>
>The guy went on about how the cars were the same, e.g. make model,
>colour, placement of suppliers stickers etc. He was very convincing and authorotive.
>
>I asked him how sure he was that the pictures were of the same vehicle,
>and he replied it was his expert opinion that the car in both pictures
>were the same vehicle.
>
>I asked him what technology he had used to colour match the vehicle
>take accurate measurements of the placement of supplier stickers etc.
>He replied he had not used any technology, so I said, so you just
>looked at the pictures and believe they are the same. He did not reply
>so I asked him again and he said using his experience, that was his
>opinion. I asked him how many vehicles on the road were the same make,
>model, colour etc, he said he did not know, I asked him to use his
>knowledge and tell me in his opinion if there were a 10, 100, 1000,
>10000 or more he said probably more than 10000.
>
>I went on to challenge him on the colour of the vehicle (not that I
>could see any difference), he said they were slightly different but
>this was probably due to the fact the photos were taken at different
>times of the day and the flash used on the speed camera.
>
>I then asked him again how sure he was the car in the photos were the
>same car from a scale of 1% to 100%. He again replied that it was his
>opinion that the car in both pictures were the same vehicle. I said to
>him so you are 99.9% sure, he said no but it was his option that the
>photos were of the same vehicle. I pushed him again for an answer on
>the scale of 1% to 100% and he would not give a percentage, so I
>summarised and said to him that he was not 100% or even 90% sure. He
>replied again, that is was his opinion that the cars in both sets of photos were of the same vehicle.
>
>I then asked him how common cloning was he said he did not have figures
>
>I then asked him if he could use his expert opinion and tell me if
>cloning was not very common, quite common, very common. He replied quite common.
>
>With this I summarised and said so you are not 100% sure it was my car
>and cloning is quite common and told him I had no further questions.
>
>
>The magistrates went away for about 25 minutes and came back and
>announced that the prosecutions case was not proved and that the reason
>was that the police had stated that cloning was quite common.
>

Nathan L

Paul

Was it the 'Unipar Urban Speed Ace' ?

If so this device needs calibration and servicing once a year and that is it. The device self tests and all the officer needs to do is point and shoot.

Nathan..

Paul N P

Speedace is the device they claim but this doesn't look the same as the device I saw when sat in the back of the police car.

Nathan L

Can you describe the device you saw? There are at least two versions of the device I know of. Every year they seem to change the case for a more funky / useable design.

Nathan..

Cider boy

You need to get a solicitor who specialises in speed related offences - the things they get people off for is just amazing and although it may cost a few more ££ it will be money well spent. Sounds like your present one really isn't on the ball

I have a good friend who runs a motorbike mag and they have had thier specialist brief get them off bans & tickets all over the country, it's just a matter of knowing what to say / not to say in the courtroom as hegehogs post above proves!

Good luck,

Matt

Paul N P

Nathan,

Device was approx 75mm x 75mm from the front and approx 250mm long. Casing was pretty much all black. The thing I remember most clearly was there was no aiming sites, means of holding or anything else attached to it. It just looked like an instrument you would normally see in an equipment panel and nothing like what you would imagine a modern hand held speed measurment device to look like. All I saw on the display was a big 128 and nothing else, a bit sketchy but I think it had a black LCD display.

Coppers who caught me have lied on their statements also about heavy traffic, thankfully 3 signed witness statements will hopefully overcome that issue. Traffic when driving was light then but became more congested when pulled over due to rubber necking, you'd expect better judgement from people who do this for a living wouldn't you.

Paul N P

Big mistake I made was not bringing a witness into cop car with me. Please learn by this, it is your right!

I was 100% polite all the time, but when I was asked if I had any questions I then politely questioned proof of speed and calibration status, the coppers got really abusive with me and told me they would put on their report the traffic was busy.

They also told me that they hoped I would get the longest possible ban, threw a few wise cracks at me and and mentioned something about me going back to England sooner rather than later!

Shame I can't really bring this cra*p up in court coz its my word against theirs. All I can do is support the real facts with signed witness statements where relevant.

hedgehog

Sounds almost like a VASCAR device though it would be attached to the dash usually, however I'm not very good at identifying these things.

I believe that people in your car are not considered as independent witnesses and if I am correct in that then their statements will be of no value. The police on the other hand are considered as expert witnesses and so the courts will, basically, have to believe every word they say unless you can independently prove otherwise. In a magistrates court you have no chance of proving otherwise. Hence why the chap I quote in the post above did so well: he cleverly got the police (expert witness) to support his case. The magistrates had no option but to rely on this evidence. To be fair at least the police in his case told the truth, it is one of the few instances i can think of where this happened.

I really think you need to get yourself a specialist solicitor who deals with these matters on a daily basis. The initial costs might be offset by the savings you make in insurance payments and fines for example and as there is the (hopefully unlikely) possibility you could end up in jail here you need the best representation you can get. I still suspect that the CPS have made a big mistake somewhere and a specialist might see it immediately and have them withdrawing their case in a matter of a few weeks.