Mice_Elf

Wonder if anyone who's in the know with Tropical Fish can help me out with a problem in my home tank....

All was set up and the fish have been living in the tank for 2 months with no problems (moved in February, so tank was re-set up then, but not from scratch.) About a month ago I cleaned out the external Fluval filter and set it going again, having added Aqua-Safe and a couple of teaspoons of EasyBalance.

For some reason, as soon as I did this (literally within hours), the Guppies started dying. Over the next few days, I must have thrown out over 20 or so Guppies. All the other fish are fine. The Fluval was not new, no new media were added and everything was washed in aquarium water.

For 3 weeks the tank has been happy with no further dying fish and the remaining Guppies alive and well, so I thought I'd restock them a little. I went to a reputable Aquatic shop that I've used many times before with no problems and purchased 6 male Guppies. I added them to the tank in the recommended way (float for 20+minutes, mix the water then release, all with lights off) and added some WhiteSpot treatment, just in case.

This was on Friday of last week. On Sunday, the Guppies started dying again. I've now lost all the new ones and 4 or 5 of the original Guppies in the tank. The baby Guppies are fine - still have around 15 of those - and all the other fish are fine (Tetras, Clown Loach, Corydoras, Swordtails). Whatever it is seems to be affecting the Guppies alone.

I can't see any problem on the dead fish at all - no marks, scratches, lesions, puffiness... I've tested the water myself and independantly and all levels are fine, nothing untoward there.

One thing I have noticed is that within the stones are small (3mm long) earwig like creatures, a few 2 - 3cm long worm things and yesterday I noticed a mass of teeming tiny dots, no more than a pin-***** in size. I'm presuming that these have come in on the plants and set up home.... Will these be the problem or is there something else that anyone can think of? How can I get rid of these unwanted bugs once and for all?

David Lock

I can't help but would be very interested in what others have to say. I did wonder though if you had discussed this with the shop where you purchased the replacements as they may have some ideas?? DL

ajm

You say you took some water samples, was this during or after the fish were dieing? The problem to me sounds like a water quality issue. My guess would be that when you cleaned out the filter you would have removed a fair amount of nitrifying bacteria, which would have caused a resulting spike in ammonia and nitrite and resulting fish death. By the time you come to test the water the bacteria has replenished somewhat, and there are less fish left producing ammonia so the results come back clear.

Then, when you add more fish you get another ammonia/nitrite spike (especially as you added 6 in one go) and the fish start dieing again.

What is the capacity of the tank and what size/type of filter have you got? It may be that the bio load of your tank is too big for your filter. If your filter has room you could try adding biomedia such as biostars or ceramic rings which will host the bulk of the nitrifying bacteria allowing you to clean the foam without causing ammonia spikes.

As for the worms and tiny dots (probably copepods - tiny crustaceans) this is usually a sign that there is too much organic matter in the gravel, maybe due to overfeeding or lack of adquate filtration. I would do a series of 10% water changes over the next week or so together with vac'ing the gravel and they should disappear on their own.

Mice_Elf

Hi ajm - thanks for the advice. The water tests were done as the fish were dying and 1 each during the 3 weeks that they were OK. The 6 were added and should have been fine as that is the recommended level at which you introduce fish, in order to prevent the filters overloading. The water test before adding the fish was OK and again on Sunday night - all still OK. Ammonia levels are very low as this was the first thing I thought of.

Also added a teaspoon of Easy Balance with the new fish, to add to the good bacteria. Forgot to mention that.

The Fluval is a 304 and already has ceramic rings in there, which again, were just swished through with aquarium water to remove any plant lumps that had filtered through. I've also got carbon in there.

Water hardness is medium and the fish were quite happy with this water when it was initially installed when we moved in.

I do vac the stones but shall try stepping that up a bit to get rid of these creatures.

ajm

Was there any visible symptoms in the behaviour of the fish. Off their food, gulping at the surface or hanging around at the filter outlet?

Shy Muppet

I've never had much joy with guppies. I used to have 8 (I have a small tropical tank) and for the first few months, everything was fine. Then for no reason what so ever, they started dying. I had the water checked (for everything) and the tests were OK. There was no obvious signs of illness/disease either which was annoying.

The only cause I could think of that would cause them to snuff it was when I cleaned the tank or changed the water. Guppies don't like a lot of stress and are quite sensitive to changes so I guess it was to much for them. My other fish were OK, though.

I noticed that you said you have clown loaches. I found them to be real bullies when it comes to "pretty fish", even though they are believed to be communual fish. They like to nibble at fins and anything that looks as though the other fish are in distress. Fancy tails and fins change the way a fish should swim naturally and gives off signals that they are distressed/injured (even though it's their natural swim movement). For months I could have no bother and then 1 day the loaches will act agressive and have a go at every fish that's in it's way. I've watched them do it and other than removing them from the tank, there's not a lot I could do.

Sorry I couldn't be much help!

Mice_Elf

ajm - the fish would be swimming about totally normally one minute and dead the next. Literally. On Sunday I was watching them, 20 minutes later I came back and 2 more were dead. The airstone is on and creates a lot of bubbles at the water surface, so oxygen absorption is good, they don't hang, gasp, fin flap, bash into stones or anything untoward. It's truly bizarre.

Shy Muppet - I've heard that about Clown Loaches too, but these ones seem OK and the fins of all the dead fish have been intact. If they hadn't then Finrot might have been the issue, but they seem perfect...just dead. I've sat and watched them for half an hour or so at a time, trying to see something happening which would alert me to the problem, but I can't see anything.

ajm

It does seem strange, I agree. Symptomatically, with death occuring so quick, it sounds like shock of the sort fish would normally get through thermal or osmotic shock, neither of which could have been the case in this instance, which really only leaves toxic shock. If we can be sure we can rule out ammonia and nitrites then I guess we need to look elsewhere.

I assume aquasafe is just a chlorine remover? Presumably just sodium thiosulphate so we can rule that out. What is in "easy balance"? I am sceptical about products that claim to add beneficial bacteria, because the nitrifying bacteria can only live in the presence of ammonia and nitrite, neither of which are going to last long in a little bottle off the shelf!

My gut feel is still that the fish must be sensitive to small spikes in ammonia and nitrite, but I'm no expert on guppys I'm afraid.

Shy Muppet

Hi Mice-Elf. The problem with fish dying is that you may never find the reason why. I guess it comes down to "one of those things" which is blinking annoying, especially when things have been fine for ages.

I found this on a web-site. Don't know if it will help.

"The ever-popular guppy is generally a hardy fish which will tolerate a wide range of conditions. However, many fish found for sale these days are not as hardy as they once were".

I know this is going to sound quite strange, but have you watched the fish with the aquarim light off? Some fish change their behaviour patterns when it's dark.

I used to have a siamese fighting fish once. Absolutely gorgeous he was and was told by the shop that he would be OK to with peaceful fishies. It was quiet and peaceful during the day, but when the light went out, it attacked and killed his tank mates. Not impressed.

It's just a thought and I hope you find an answer for you guppies.

David Lock

Mice - you haven't mentioned your tank heater. I assume that is working OK and I am sure you would have noticed temperature drop if it was malfunctioning? DL

Mice_Elf

I haven't watched them with the light off, it's true...might try that tonight.

Easy Balance...information from here : http://www.petdiscounters.com/aquari...y_balance.html

Easy Balance
Easy Balance is an innovation in aquarium maintenance. With Easy Balance you only have to change aquarium water twice a year. Regular use of Easy Balance eliminates strenuous and time consuming troubles of frequent water changes by keeping aquarium water biologically and chemically balanced for six months. For freshwater aquarium use only. Designed for use with tanks that have proper filtration and normal fish loads.

Stabilizes pH and Alkalinity
Supplies a continuous buffer that prevents pH decline that occurs in aquariums over time due to the natural acidification created during the nitrification cycle.
Reduces Phosphate Improving Water Quality
Removes phosphate from tap water and prevents its accumulation as a byproduct of protein digestion of fish foods. Unique active ingredient does not cloud water.
Adds Vitamins, Minerals and Trace Elements
Turns the aquarium into a natural bio-reactor that biodegrades organic pollutants and provides nutrients required by heterotrophic bacteria including biological filtration nitrifiers.


I don't use it very often, just when doing a major clean, or when introducing new fish.

Mice_Elf

Hi David - yes, the heater is working fine and maintaining a temp of between 25 & 26*C.

IPALMER

iTrader: (5)

watching / reading this with interest as i put 6 guppies in my one month old tank this weekend.

touch wood , they're all fine.

I hope you get to the bottom of it

iain

Dark Blue Mark

What do the dead ones look like, apart from, dead?!

Do they have fins nibbled, white spot etc?

MB

David Lock

And they don't

Sorry but there not like cats are they? David (who found one of his nice Koi dead on the lawn this morning about 6 ft from the pond. Guess it jumped out poor bugger).

Gordo

Easy Balance my ****. There's no way a bottle of liquid can achieve all that. Almost certainly the culprit.

A friend of mine is having problems with his cichlids at the minute - again my suspicion is the 'friendly' chemicals he uses on a regular basis together with over-enthusiasm when washing his filter. Our problem is we can't stop ours growing (oldest we've had for five years now) and I've never introduced anything to the tank that might spike the levels.

Tap water should be left to stand for a few days to de-chlorinate, warm-up etc before being used for a tank change. Sounds obvious, but too many go for the quick fix - get some big plastic tubs from Macro or B&Q.

Guppies are normally robust little sods - I'd suggest swapping fish shop, find a wholesaler if poss so you can see the quality of the fish being brought in. Definitely some duff in-bred stocks around.

Good luck.

Gordo

Mice_Elf

Dead ones look absolutely fine. No nibbled / ratty fins, no lesions, no marks, no spots, no cotton-wool type areas...

I think that I'll throw the Easy Balance away, although I have used it before with no problems.

Have to admit, normally my fish are hardy creatures that you couldn't kill even if you left them out of water for a week, but these ones all seem to be very weak.

Dark Blue Mark

Maybe a dodgy supply, ive had this and it wiped out nearly all my fish. Ill never buy from a pet superstore again. Make sure you go to a specialist place...

MB

ajm

Agree with above comments, it certainly looks like they are less hardy than guppies should be. How are the rest doing now?

Mice_Elf

ajm - the rest seem to be fine still. No dead ones last night or this morning. I have about 3 adult Guppies left and around 15 babies (1cm or less). All the others are ok.

Bravo - I've inspected them minutely, but couldn't see anything. It's possible it's these insects, but would have thought they'd attack the other fish as well? Maybe? I hoovered out the stones again last night and will do it a bit more thoroughly tonight, to try to get rid of them as much as possible.

I'm loathe to do too much incase I upset the balance any more....

ajm

You shouldn't need to go too overboard on the cleaning.... just a little every couple of days for the next couple of weeks. Eventually the organic matter they are feeding on will disappear, and any nematodes and copepods will die off.

Mice_Elf

OK thanks...will leave them alone tonight then. Will probably do another water test though, just to see if anything's changed / remained the same.

Dark Blue Mark

Cant you get some butt kicking insect eating beast? Some form of loach / crab?!

Just on crabs, (the aquatic type ) I had a couple and the *******s were amazing at escaping. Found one crawling down the stairs

Evil gits.

MB

Tiggs

you will NEVER EVER EVER keep a crab in a tank...dont even bother trying!

Merv

iTrader: (12)

Imported Guppies seem to give alot of trouble lately,they are sent over with antibiotics in the bags, which will lower their imune system.They look great after two weeks in quarantine, but put them near anything carrying something like a slight bacterial problem and down they will go.

Try adding 1 to 2 teaspoons of cooking salt per 5 gallons of tank water,this will change the osmotic pressure on the fish,this will help to relieve stress and lower the chance of nitrite getting into the blood steam.

There is no short cut to regular water changes,I don't care what the bottle says,that liquid can not replace lost minerals and compounds that your fish have absorbed over 6 months.By adding Easy Balance your pH could have jumped up all of a sudden, pH shock is a bigger killer of fish that tempature shock.

One other thing to look out for is Chloramine,alot of water companies are now putting this in their supplies,check that your water conditioner will remove it,as it will not gas off with aeration.

Mice_Elf

So far so good....everything seems to have settled down again. No further dead fish, so I'll give it a few weeks and try a couple more swordfish, to add to the 3 I've got currently. Think I'll give the Guppies a miss for a while.

ajm

That's good news. Any change in the worms etc.?

I hadn't heard of this, but it sounds like a dodgy practise to me! Out of interest, do you know which antibiotic they are using to do this?

Edited to add: One of the reasons I am curious is that if the antibiotic used targets "gram negative" bacteria (as most common fish infections are) then it will also kill off nitrifying bacteria as they are also gram negative. So apart from lowered immune response, if any quantity of the shipping water makes it into the aquarium it could cause the tank to recycle by killing off your filter.

Mice_Elf

Ajm - I hoovered the tank again last night and removed a couple more worms and bugs, but definitely a lot less than last time. I'm feeding them a lot less (well, there aren't as many fish now, either) and did a 10% water changed yesterday as well.

Maybe it was the Easy Balance, but I've used it before without causing this problem... Or maybe the fish were stronger then... No idea... Either way, they seem to have settled down again now. Tank looks VERY empty though!

SomeDude

Which it never should, right ? Like in never, ever ? Not even a drop ? Worst case scenario, you even cleaned the new fish with PP ?

Oh well, I'm no longer bothering with posting up information as I'm probably Nacro etc but... fish don't die "just because the heck of it".

I'm more at home with ponds than with aquaria, but 90 % (or more) of the "rules" are valid for both environments.

Keeping those critters alive is not an easy thing at all, and you have to read tons of material before you even start to see how & why.

Oh, and DL, I did PMSL with your latest snail mail

Sorry to hear about your fish though, it would be a lot more fun to keep them alive eh (unlike cats of course ajm...)

Mice, in order of probability (without knowing/seeing/measuring your system, or being able to do scrapes/microscopic research blah blah), your problem could be (in order of probability)

a) temp related (they really hate temp swings)
b) filter cleaning related (turning your aquarium into a toxic waste dump)
c) stocking related
d) introducing new stock/situations related
e) toxic discharge related (through mains water, possible, but unlikely)
f) parasite/bacteria/fungus related (I doubt that very much)

Antibiotics in a bag... buyer beware, fish outlets are even less to be trusted than Subaru outlets it seems

But... it's also an easy cop out.

Anyway, good luck with the fish, hope things settle down