Nicci

This programme was on channel 4 last night.

Warnings were given before the programme, but I was still shocked at what I saw.

It was presented by a lady who had an abortion 13 years earlier and was now expecting (and had) a child. I just wonder how she managed to visit all the abortion doctors while heavily pregnant and stay open minded.

I understand showing pictures of the aborted foetus, as disgusting as it was, but showing the footage of the abortion being carried out was disturbing.
If my b/f wasn't being an annoying distraction at the time, I probably would have cried (was feeling a bit sensitive anyway as I discovered earlier that day that one of my mates lost her expected baby at the weekend at just under 5 months).

I don't want any comments to be for or against abortion, just what did you think of the programme.

imlach

It was nothing that couldn't be seen on the internet.

My standpoint? Anyone that has a "social" abortion at anything close to 24 weeks needs their head examined, and as the doctor said, he would do it at that stage for the sake of the baby, not the mother. At that stage, there are other options such as adoption etc.

I do agree that a limit of 12 weeks for "social" abortions would seem more sensible.

However, I don't think the pro-lifer's can ever get their way. Abortion will just be driven to back-street clinics if it was made illegal. Also, if a feotus is just so horrifically maldeveloped, abortion should be an option. The pro-lifers believe that ALL feotuses should progress to term full stop.

However, I guess if the pro-lifers could reduce the number of social abortions, then they may have done some good. Be this either encouraging more use of contraception (do they consider the pill to be non-pro-life!?), or trying to make people think before they act I suppose.

zoton

Nicci

I avoided it and twisted my wife's arm to avoid it to. Therefore I know I'm open criticism about complaining about something I didn't see but I had checked out the programmes remit before it aired.

A sensible discussion is good but this smacked of ghoulish 'entertainment'. What was the purpose? To inform or show some stunningly powerful pictures?
Did it help any women faced with this kind of awful choice? If it adds to anyone's misery the programme makers should be castrated (on TV of course....should be excellant viewing).

Did the programme indicate what it was doing to support those that it gave concerns to? Money to contraception advice, etc etc. Helpline at the end of the show....very helpful

I work in healthcare and think I'm open minded......maybe I'm not after all?

Sorry but you did ask!

Zoton

Reffro

Thought the programme was superb. Very carefully presented, and fair to both sides of the argument. Being a fella, I'm not directly affected by what was shown, but I watched it all as I felt it was important to better understand the whole subject/debate. After watching it my views haven't changed, but I will probably be more sympathetic to those struggling with the decision of abortion.

imlach

Interesting standpoint!
Has anyone told you how babies are made yet?

zoton

Imlach

Good points but what the hell is a 'social abortion'?


Z

Reffro

I am never going to have an abortion, so I'm not directly affected...........

My involvement in any abortion will always be indirect, as I will only know the person having the abortion, not be that person.

And yes I am well aware of how you make babies, sugar and spice for girls, puppy dogs tails for boys.........

imlach

Err.....the physical abortion is not really relevant. It is the decision about an abortion at which the debate centres, as I really do think you should read about the facts of life to understand how babies are made It takes two to tango as they say.

imlach

One in which the decision is based on social reasons. ie, there is nothing physically wrong with the foetus, nor the mother, but is just an unwanted foetus.

SD

Was waiting for this thread to pop up.

I watched with the wife, and found a lot of it quite disturbing. We both felt the program had a lean towards a pro-abortion standpoint, and also were quite disturbed at the way that the presenter kept refering to her baby as 'my foetus', even a couple of weeks before it was due.

It hasn't changed any opinions of mine, but I have formed some where I didn't have any before. IMO the legal limit for abortions should be 12 weeks, not 24. Mrs SD agrees.

Left the telly on for 30 minutes or so before we went to sleep so that it wasn't the last thing in our minds before we slept.

I'm aware they just wanted to present the 'facts' but in my opinion the program was not unbiased. The presenter certainly had a pre-existing agenda IMO.

Simon.

imlach

If I was to be honest, I'd say the programme was also slightly biased in the pro-abortion camp. I guess the presenter/producter/writer had that viewpoint, so it'd probably be difficult for that not to come across.

RichWalk

I,ve had direct experience of it (not my child though) never really been able to decide either way- at the time it was a pruely pragmatic event and the woman viewed as such- trouble is you never really know (male perspective) what the real pshycological effects are.

EddScott

I tried everything not to watch this programme but the GF insisted and I ended up being more engrossed in it than she. Saw the presenter of the programme on Breakfast News a few days prior and I took an instant dislike to her and the references to her "Foetus" appeared to be forced upon the viewer.

When I first found out my GF was pregnant I was for having an abortion. Had I seen this programme it would have impressed on me the views of my GF that it was effectively a small baby very quickly rather than a blob of blood. Fortunately we didn't have an abortion and now have a 2 and half year old daughter.

My daughter is absolutely awsome!!!

Nicci

I had no idea that the cut off was 24 weeks. I think that is much to late for a social abortion.

It was the last thing I watched before going to bed (silly mistake).

I hope that the show was watched by teenage girls and that they think twice before having unprotected s*x.

As graphic as it was, I think it has made people aware of what the abortion procedure involves.

imlach

24 weeks is the medical definition of when a foetus becomes a child. It is at this point as this is the earliest they are potentially medically viable if born then.

As you can see, most people would think it was a child before that point.

Dracoro

Zoton - you evidently (as you stated) didn't see the program and comments like -'If it adds to anyone's misery the programme makers should be castrated (on TV of course....should be excellant viewing).'- are just pathetic. Anyhow the program was presented in as factual manner as possible and not in any way for 'ghoulish entertainment'.

The imagery was generally kept to a minimum and were presented in a factual manner. These images are in the public domain

The actual abortion itself didn't bother me at all, not really any more contorversial than any other surgical operation performed on TV. The images used by the pro-life people were rather more 'eurgh'. The pro-life images are also somewhat misguiding as it is of a 21 week foetus whereas most abortions are taken in the first 12 weeks. The image of the earlier foetus's are certainly less 'eurgh', especially the 4 week one which you couldn't really make any sort of 'human' like image out of.

SD - ' The presenter certainly had a pre-existing agenda IMO' - WHAT possible agenda did she have apart from wanting the issue to be discussed using the facts?

Personally I think the biggest issue is the 24 week thing. As someone above said, maybe it should be 12 weeks. Would like to know why 24 weeks was chosen when abortion was made legal. Maybe time for the law to change. The other issue is at what point is it terminating a life? Just after conception? Do the pro-life people believe the morning after pill to be wrong? etc.

weapon69

I didn't watch it (as i'm sure i'd seen half the programme shown in clips earlier in the day )

24 weeks is ridiculous,i've always thought so. I couldn't believe the 3D images they got of a foetus developing especially at 12 weeks, it didn't look 'blobby' just a tiny baby. I'm pro-choice though for sure, i just wish they'd make it 12 wks cut off for abortion.

V45DSM

We were 'forced' to watch an anti-abortion propoganda film titled 'The Silent Scream' at school (catholic) at the age of 13. I walked out.

We've no right to stop someone having an abortion, just as we've no right in deciding who can have kids. It’s between them and their own conscience.

LG John

24 weeks is too late IMHO - if you look at a development chart of a 24 week old baby its very well formed Abortion is always a difficult subject and one that most people have an opinion of some sort on. The bottom line is you don't really know what your true opinion/feelings on the matter are until you are faced with the difficult decision.

SiPie

Well said ...

imlach

I'd agree on that.

SD

Sorry to be abrupt, but I've made this comment based on the following reasons:

1) Her describing her baby as 'foetus' right up to it's birth.
2) The program not showing any of the emotional affects that abortion can cause to women especially, where some actually commit suicide. More counselling (sp?) needed before and after I think.
3) The fact that her father ran the largest private abortion clinic in the UK.
4) The fact that no reference was made to the fact that a baby can be born at just 5 months and still survive, with help.

I'm not saying the program shouldn't have been shown, but it certainly to my eyes was not unbiased.

Simon.

Dracoro

??? What else is it unless it's a foetus? A foetus is a foetus until it's is born. It's merely terminology anyway isn't it?
It also didn't cover the emotional trauma of those that don't abort (then give up for adoption, keep, abandon etc.) nor did it cover the fathers perspective. Anyway, worthy discussion points that you suggest, they're for another program surely. This program was about the facts surrounding abortion, not about the emotional trauma. The emotional effects are so varied and affects different women different ways. To just try to capture just some of this within the program wouldn't do any sort of justice to the topic of emotional trauma.

She was bought up in a household where 'pro-choice' was a given but even still she still questioned her thoughts and feelings on the matter. Most people just go along with what their parents say/tell them without ever questioning them.

The keyword here is 'can'. Should we have the baby induced before 24 weeks (or whatever number 'we' decide) instead of termination and see if it survives then give it up for adoption? A baby born at 5 months may well have some serious health problems to face. Problems it may well have to face without a mother too.

Anyway, nothwithstanding the above, you've pointed out to me why you think she may be biased (and let's face it, no-one can be 100% unbiased) but you've not told me what this 'hidden agenda' is. Can you elaborate please.

imlach

To be medically precise, a foetus becomes a baby/child at 24 weeks.

Dracoro

Fair enough. I just looked in the dictionary and it said it was a foetus until it's born.

SD

Fair responses, all.

Maybe 'hidden agenda' was the wrong expression to use. It's just that she came across to me as trying to influence the audience into de-emotionalising abortion, and thus make it easier for them to land on the 'pro-choice' side of the fence. Calling it a foetus right up to birth is a little odd. Anything that 'lives' and could survive unaided must surely be a baby.

I'm trying not to let me only feelings influence what I say here - which as you suggest is difficult.

Anyway, getting quite deep now. Work to do!

Simon.

scoobynutta555

Thought it was an interesting and thought provoking documentary. It was from the view of a soon to be mother that has already had an abortion. It could be said that the lead was impartial as she has seen both sides of the coin.

The programme although was about a serious issue, seemed to keep its feet on the ground and shied away from harsh criticism.

I for one didn't have much of an idea of the abortion process etc. I found it fascinating to have really good pictures of a foetus from 12 weeks on, not just the usual black and white scans that could be anything.

I was a bit saddened to find out that abortion is legal up to 24 weeks, as the pictures from the womb clearly showed a 'baby' not a sack of cells at this age. 12 weeks was mentioned as a cut off for abortions. To me, anything after this date is wholly unacceptable.

Although the programme seemed to be non judgemental, i think a few points shown sparked a pro life feeling amongst the audience. Such as the high quality pictures of a 'baby' in the womb, the interview with the doctor who mentioned having to *cut* the foetus into several parts to remove from the woman and the fact that another doctor confessed to having reservations about late abortions.

Although there was one gory part of the whole film, i think it would be much less of a documentary if it were not to be shown. After all its apparently one case in 180,000 odd in the UK alone each year

The film didnt change my viewpoint on abortions (pro-choice) but it did make me ask myself why other avenues for unwanted children weren't being pursued, especially since we have a declining population of a younger generation and, apparently, many potential adopters. Also I think 24 weeks cut off is ridiculous and this should at least be halved.

zoton

Really interesting debate. One in which as I didn't choose to watch the show I will dip out of......but this 'social abortion' thing is really bothering me.

If the definition 'nothing physically wrong with the foetus or mother' is to be accepted as a social abortion then it could be seen as an rather awkward term for those with psychological problems, the educational sub normal, victims of an assault, etc.

I suppose the term 'social' infers 'casual' and 'convenient' to me....it could just be me!

An illustration of the complex issues that face so many people, none of which I would see myself fit to pass judgement on.

Z

imlach

"social" does mean casual/convenient I guess.

An abortion performed on someone that was mentally challenged (and deemed not to be able to care for a child) would not be classed as a "social" abortion.

P1Fanatic

IMHO the same would stand for women who are assaulted.

Although I didnt watch the program it seems to me that a lot of people in here (quite of a few of which are male) seem to have strong opinions on this. How you can quite have such an in depth understanding without a) being female and b) having been in the situation baffles me. Who are you to tell a women that she cant have an abortion after 12 weeks??

Simon.