The Zohan

Ok our car was clocked at 46 in a 40 - Mobile camera a mile from the house - it shot the rear of the car, did not know they did that!!!.

I requested a picture, we have the one car i work from home and it really could be either one of us. The picture show the rear of the car cannot see anything inside the car to distinguish who was driving. We drive up and down this road 4+ times a day on most days that week i was busy with work (ironically for Northants Police) going from home to the edit suite and to the Police Station amongst doing the banking. Jenny was out and about doing stuff.
All of these involved going along this stretch of road

I have been told that it will go to court and i have to explain to the judge that we do not know who was driving at the tiime. I am concerned about this, we really cannot remember who was at the wheel. Not sure what the judge will say.


Has anyone had a similar experience???

OllyK

If you can prove that you do go up and down the road a lot, both of you - bank receipts, shop receipts etc etc then you should be fine, especially for that day, find what evidence you can - mind you the timings on that evidence may indicate who it was!

Chris L

Paul

Got loads of things I can probably help you with. Drop me an email and I'll send some stuff over. One thing to note that as this was a mobile camera, you are entitled to the photographic evidence, the calibration certificate and a copy of the policeman's statement. If you want details of my own (so far successful) fight over a very similar speeding offece, I would be more than happy to share them with you.

Chris

MattW

Me too - just been summonsed for exactly same.

Jerome

Ultimately it will go to the registered keeper of the car if you can't say who was driving. A Chief Constable got the fine (and probably the points) when nobody admitted to driving an unmarked car used by his force.

If there is a way of getting round this I'd be surprised.

Neanderthal

iTrader: (6)

Up until now I thought mobile camera's only got you from the front to avoid just this situation?

Boro

iTrader: (1)

Few of questions...

Did you get the NIP via 1st class mail or better?

Are you married?

Who is the registered keeper?

There are loopholes still in existence, if the answers to the above questions are the right ones.

Chris L

Matt - are you at the summons stage or have you had a NIP? I can help with some advice if you've just been done and are basically at the first stage of fighting the ticket. If you are already summoned to court, that's a different story..

Chris

MattW

Chris - i have my summons.....

letdown

Dont really understand what all the fuss is about. If you and the Mrs cant decide who is gonna take the 3 points Id say there was the 1st problem.

Seriously though......One of you got caught speeding! Full stop...just be a man and take it on the chin so to speak.

You'll be phoning Claims direct soon for the strees !!

TaviaRS

Got their number?

letdown

Stick the telly on for 20 mins or so and Im sur you'll find someone to help you !!

TaviaRS

The Zohan

Thanks for the replies

Chris - Thanks for the offer and i will PM you shortly

Boro
Did you get the NIP via 1st class mail or better? - 1st class post

Are you married? - No, living with partner for 12 years

Who is the registered keeper? - Yes


Letdown
TBH the money for the fine is not the issue, they have photographic evidence that the car was travelling at 46 in a 40. The points are, if the Police cannot provide evidence as to who was driving and we cannot remember then why should the points be apportioned to the registered keeper.

I understood you are guilty until proved innocent - unless there is money from a fine to be had, or so it seems!

For example if lets say 1 was thought be be stealing something but they could not tell clearly it was me would they have the right to convict me on this basis - I think not.

Whilst i am prepared to pay the fine i really do object to the points if they cannot prove without doubt it was me.

It is just down to an easy clear up for the Police and more importantly they are prepared to 'bend' the law if i get the points. IMHO.

If i could tell from the piccie i would put my hands up to it, simple as that!

Paul

letdown

Splitting hairs me thinks. Im just pulling your leg Paul. If you want to stand up in court and tell the magistrate your story go for it.

They should dish it out like they did at school.........Right if neither of you will admit it.........you can BOTH be punished.

That would soon sort it out !

Chris L

Matt - Bugger All you can do I guess is make sure that they all the evidence they require at court - that's if they pursue it. A lot depends on the seriousness of the offence.

That's what they all rely on. The vast majority of people appear to be happy to accept this without challenging the system. The governement continues to peddle the bull**** view that 'speed kills'. Say it long enough and people begin to accept it as the truth. My objection was to being used as some form of secondary taxation for a minor offence that presented no danger to other road users or myself.

I looked into exactly what evidence I was entitled to see prior to going to court. The authorities rely on the fact that most people are prepared to accept a NIP or maybe a photo and that's it. You are entitled to see other forms of evidence (depending on the type of camera that caught you).

If you were in court for an offence, your lawyer would be entitled to see all the evidence prior to the hearing to prepare your defence. The exact same rules apply for speeding. Most of the camera partnerships rely on the fact that 99% of people don't know what they are entitled to and just pay up. If you make yourself awkward enough, they will often give up the prosecution as there are plenty of other mugs out there prepared to pay the fines, without challenging the system. All it has cost me is 3 letters sent by recorded delivery.

My arguement was how I can make a decision as to whether I take my case to court without seeing the evidence against me? On 3 occassions I asked for all the documents. I was eventually sent the photographs, but not the calibration certificates or the police officer's statement.

They kept saying that this would be available at court. I kept saying not good enough. Eventually I wrote to them and said if you want to pursue this, issue a summons. If you do, I will refuse to enter a plea and issue a formal complaint against the police force in question, naming the Chief Constable and manager of the Fines Office for failure to provide the evidence.

Haven't heard anything since The point is they know they are in the wrong. They are relying on people's ignorance to fleece them for fines. That is my objection and why I decided to fight mine.

Chris

letdown

You say that most people just pay up..............thats cause most of the time its a fair cop as in this case! Why kick up the system if its black and white? Saying you dont know who was driving is a bit of weak argument IMHO.Your case may have been different.

MattW

Chris - I am a little further down the road than you, done all my letters and have just received first summons. It is being returned today as "Not Guilty" which will be the first time the CPS get a chance to look at it, I'm hoping their case is weak enough to be dropped at the PTR.

And I really don't know who was driving. It was for 51 on a 40mph limit Dual Carriageway

NotoriousREV

This is bullsh1t, I'm afraid. The law states that you must use reasonable efforts to identify the driver, however there is no legal requirement to record a log of anyone driving a vehicle (applies to both private and company vehicles). If you're married (or living with your partner) and are both insured on the vehicle and can convince the court that you don't know who was driving (the fact that you obtained the photo to help indentify the driver was a very good step) then no one will get the points or the fine. You can't convict someone of a crime if there is not enough supporting evidence.

I suggest writing to the police force who issued the NIP and tell them that you have tried to identify the driver, but due to you usage patterns you can't do so. It may not even get to court.

Leslie

I think that is good advice from Not Rev Paul. If the police are not helpful then all you can do is attend the court and plead not guilty for the reasons you told us. I imagine that the police should be in no doubt that you will plead not guilty at court and they may well decide that it is not worth all the fuss especially since the speed quoted is not that much over the allowed speed agreed by the ACPO's if at all.

Les

The Zohan

Dear All
Again, thanks for your advice, noted and i will update as this progesses.

Paul

Chris L

letdown - that's not the point! The Fine Offices are not compiling with the law in providing you the information that you are entitled to. Why should I accept this? If the speed camera policy was about road safety they would have a totally different attitude.

All they are interested in doing is collecting as much money as possible. To maximise this, they supply what they think they can get away with to keep their administration costs down. I've spoken at length about this to an ex-traffic cop with 30+ years of experience. He in no way condones speeding, but is totally fed up with the abuse of the system by the government and its agencies. It was him who gave me most of the information I need to fight my case!

Matt - its difficult to know. It may certainly be worth writing to them if they decide to pursue the case, asking for ALL the evidence against you so that you can prepare a defence. If you're lucky they'll forget about you.

Chris

Leslie

I did not think that Letdown's posts merited a reply personally!

Les

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

I got an NIP for exactly the same thing - this is how I replied

Unit Officer
Avon and Somerset Constabulary
Camera Processing Unit
New Bridewell
Bridewell Street
Bristol
BS1 2QH
Reference C10875751

I have been sent an NIP under the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 for an alleged offence committed on xx

I cannot state the name of the person driving the car. This is a company vehicle and is insured for anyone to drive. However, the likelihood is that either myself, or my girlfriend were driving the alleged vehicle on this date.

This alleged offence has been discussed with this individual, as we don’t know which one was driving we requested a picture of the car.

We duly received a blown up image of the rear of the vehicle, although the number plate is not clear on the blown up image.

The image does not show who was driving this vehicle at the time of the offence.

Therefore as no statement applies to this case I cannot accurately and truthfully complete any section.

I am not accepting a conditional offer of a fixed penalty, as I am not able to determine who was driving the vehicle and I am sure the law states that the onus is on the authorities to prove who committed the offence, in this instance this is not possible


Yours Sincerely


I then got a letter from the camera unit stating that they were dropping the NIP - but would reopen if any further info came to light - yeah right

Jerome

Bull****?

If it was that easy to avoid points & a fine, everyone would be doing it...

NotoriousREV

I currently have a clean licence and it isn't because I observe the speed limit

Read this. And I never said it was easy, what I said was that it was bull**** that a registered keeper will get the points/fine if another driver is not identified. They will only be found guilty if they cannot prove they exercised due diligence in identifying the driver.