boomer

So how is this supposed to work then??

See http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/ for a content-free explanation of this wonderful anti-fraud system

Basically, you plug your credit card into a machine, and instead of writing your signature, you type in four digits on a keypad.

Er, so what is to stop Mr. Dodgy shopkeeper from using a "modified" machine than takes a copy of your "secret" pin, and also collects all the swipe/chip details - then making multiple transactions against your card which are validated against your PIN??

At least you stand a fair chance of spotting "additional" card reader gadgets at ATMs, but Chip and Pin seems to be inviting fraud

mb

BuRR

They do this in France, I believe, with less chance of fraud than over here.

Let's face it... how many retailers thoroughly check the signature on the back of the card? I've lost count the number of times my card's been given back to me even before I've signed the slip! At least this way, the card company verifies the PIN.

Tiggs

as above...i got a new visa that i forgot to sign, it was weeks before any retailer even noticed!

i have also used my wifes by mistake- again, no one notices.

T

Jerome

This system is used here and it seems to work quite well. Even convenience stores, fast food outlets etc have them. Means you can get away without carrying much cash around. It would be difficult to modify the machines I imagine because there are only a few different types and they are connected to the till which prints out a receipt.

Jamo

iTrader: (23)

I work for egg and we have been looking at this for a whilst now, believe me its better than signing, its safer a lot safer, machines will be issued to shops so they wont be able to record pins, and besides they cant copy the chips so even if they did get the pin its bloody useless! at the minute any muppet can clone a credit card, thats goin right outa the window. look at the figures. I use one of these internally daily for monitoring purposes, its brilliant! any egg customers on here? well were going to have the best one on the market! and the safest, watch out for some very cool offers at egg very soon guys!!

jamo

WR1

Isn't this just gonna put even more emphasis on online credit card fraud? What's to stop someone stealing a card and just buying stuff online instead?

Just my 2p worth

ajm

So how does mail order over the telephone work then?

Duck_Pond

From what I gather, there are exceptions to the rule of having to enter the PIN, as for example internet and telephone-based sales would be impossible. Also, not all EPOS systems are on-line, so the validation of the PIN is impossible.

ChrisB

AJM - some shops put them through as Cardholder Not Present (CNP)

Boomer - what's to stop a shop doing the same now with your signature or using CNP transactions?

Kermit

It will be a legal requirement to go Chip&Pin

Its all to do with liability/under writing, the finance institutions/banks will not cover (maybe reduce the cover) of fraud insurance on transactions that are not Chip&Pin. Similarly with CNP there is reduce/no fraud cover buy the banks to the retailer.

Mcbrun555

The simple fact is, anyone can look at a signature and fake it, taking numbers from a machine will be a bit more of a task apart form your hardened criminals.

Nicci

Those of us in Northampton have been using chip and pin since last May (we were the trial town).

I like the novelty of it at the moment especially when I am with people from out of the area as they have no idea what is going on.

The scheme may help a little against fraud, thats all.

When you go into the supermarket and pay for your goods, you key your pin into the little machine, but this is in full view of anyone around you, very few machines have guards around them. When my b/f when shopping with me, I thought I was being secretive entering my pin until he said 'now I know your pin'.
Any dodgy people can watch you enter your pin, then mug you outside, taking your card and then they can use it at the cash machine to withdraw cash.

I do not think this is safe.

ajm

Wasn't the alternative to use retinal or finger print authentication? I wouldn't fancy that either if the thief has to steal your card AND a body part!

Brendan Hughes

Had it in Belgium when I was there in 93-95, now have it in Portugal while I'm here 01-04. You'd think that if they didn't work in 10 years someone would have stopped it by now.

I think there's less chance of someone mugging you after spotting your PIN than there is of someone stealing your bag and faking your signature at their leisure, which is what happens now. Despite the TV you watch, society isn't that violent.

Clarebabes

Northampton is at the forefront of this technology. It's so easy when you go into Next or whatever, the employee of the store does not touch your card, so less chance of them cloning etc......

BMWhere?

We have it in Germany too... its really convenient and much quicker to do card transactions. Theres still a few places that require signature instead though.

The big advantage is you can't skim the cards as you can at the moment. All the info on the magnetic strip can be read and copied without any level of security. On a chip card, the memory is hidden from the card readers. The card machines can then pass the pin number and/or a bank security number to the card and the card can validate the details and return a response code to the bank for the authorisation. The card reader may never know the actual card number.

Brendan Hughes

Well in that case I should read more carefully. In neither Belgium nor Portugal is there a chip, just the PIN. Sorry

boomer

Humm,

i see what you mean about not being able to "skim the chip", but i still don't like the idea of your PIN being intercepted in some way (like has been done at ATMs). S'pose one important thing is NOT to use the same PIN for your C&P as you do for anything else!

mb

BMWhere?

The point is, stealing your pin is useless without stealing your card too. With skimming they steal your pin (in the case of ATM skimming) and card (effectively) without you knowing, they can then go spending for weeks before you start to notice!

If someone steals your actual card after seeing your pin, you're going to report it very quickly - maybe a couple of hours at most. Even though the theif may get away with a couple of transactions its not going to be anything near what they can currently get away with.

I've been doing this in Germany for seven years now and nobody ever stole my pin or card!

boxst

Hello

Although this solution is not ideal, at least it goes some way to prevent "casual" stealing of cards.

Retailers annoy me as they very rarely even bother to check the signature, the just assume that if they have received an authorisation code then that's fine. Which is just silly. So at least now I have to know a pin number to confirm the transaction.

Steve.