stephen emery

See the new tory initiative is to bring back the death penalty. Daved Davis
Not sure on this. Don't like the idea but for that @@@@@@@@@@@ who killed the two Soham kids well maybe.


steve

ps
Pete know i know why you like the Labour party

Chip

Hang em, then they cant do it again then can they.

Chip

what would scooby do

Aye, murderers, repeat offenders and diaper-snipers should be hung.. there has to be a better safeguard against bad convictions though..

pslewis

Hang those where there is NO question

Trouble is, look at how many innocents we would have hanged??

With DNA evidence and a cast iron case I would kill them, but then again, I would kill all those who were a drag on society - take that gypsie scum who was wounded by Tony Martin? He will be costing YOU and I ALL his miserable life ..... finish the job Tony Martin started!!

Pete

mart360

I grew up in Soham, and went to the village college as it was then,

we never had to worry about where we were going as it was such a small village

many a w/end my mate and i used to cycle to a nearby river approx 5 miles away and fish often for most of the day...

our parents always knew where we were, and used to leave us to it.

the area itself, has its own natural dangers ... but never did it occur that somthing like that could happen,,,

if the tosser thinks the jury will accept his defence ,, then hes certifiable, or is that possibly his defence...

i think he ought to be locked in stocks in the town centre, and the people of Soham can let him know what the level of feeling is...


then leave him there as a reminder to the pther nutters and paedo,s

Mart

Leslie

The point is,it is not an official Tory policy,merely Davis' own personal opinion. It is important to get that right!

I think there may well be a case for it though for certain types of murderous behaviour. There is no penalty at the moment which will make a deliberate murderer think twice and stop thieves from carrying lethal weapons and being prepared to use them to avoid arrest. Murder is so commonplace these days that they hardly get a mention unless there are other factors. When the death penalty was in force, any murder was front page news because they did not happen anything like so often. The people who say that the death penalty makes no difference are just plain wrong.

Les

talizman

iTrader: (1)

A few points....

Firstly, this will NEVER come to fruition. As correctly stated above, this is not Tory Party policy, but the views of 1 MP.
There are hardly any MP's in favour of re-introducing the death penalty, regardless of affiliation, so it will never happen.

Secondly, I don't agree that the death penalty works as a deterrent against serious crimes like murder. Look at America where capital punishment exists in many many states, yet they have an incredibly high "homicide" rate as they call it.

Perhaps if re-introduced, it would have an initial positive effect on things, but how long would it take for things to deteriorate to the stage where killings are still carried out, regardless of the penalty?

We must appreciate that although some killings are made in the heat of the moment and can be explained by perhaps revenge, provocation, alcohol, drugs etc, the vast majority are pre-meditated and committed by those with serious pathological "issues". These people could not be deterred regardless of whether we have the death penalty or not.

I'm not going to go into detail regards the well-known cases, but do you think for a moment that people like Soham or Dunblane would change their actions if the death penalty were in force?

I don't think so, mainly because for people to commit such acts, they have to have some serious, serious problems and are obviously unable to rationalise to the extent that they fear for their selves regards the repercussions.

Having said all that, if there were a vote tomorrow to re-introduce Capital Punishment, I'd definitely vote for it.

In my humble opinion, why keep the types of people we have listed above, alive? What purpose could they possibly serve society?
They are a waste of a life, and as such not required nor desired on this planet.

I appreciate that people fear that the miscarriages of justice would be killed wrongly, but personally, I'd be willing to risk making one or two "mistakes" if you will, in order to rid the world of the thousands of confirmed "bad people".

You can't beat a nice light-hearted topic on a Sunday morning, whilst watching Songs of Praise!

Leslie

You'll get Telboy after you for your Sunday morning habits Talizman

I can't help feeling that if the average would be murderer knows he is facing death by lethal injection or whatever if he is caught, then it is very likely to make him think twice about it.

Les

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Yeah but when you consider that most murders are commited in one of two types of circumstances.

1) Heat of the moment where no thought is given to the consequences, hence little regard shown.

2) Psycho stuff, like the individuals who do stuff like those cited above. Do they really "think" about what might happen to them enough to be frightened out of doing it? I don't think so.

The ones that would be put off by capital punishment, as perhaps the types who carry weapons, but don't actually intend killing anyone until the $hit hits the fan. These people may alter their actions IMHO by not carrying.

Dracoro

a) What if you get the wrong person? This WILL happen from time to time.
b) I personally think a lifetime in prison is worse than instant death. Be honest, if you had the choice of death or a lifetime in a hell hole, which would you choose?
c) It punishes the friends and family of the perpetrator. The have a relative/friend taken away from them. They suffer yet have done nothing wrong. If the perpetrator is in jail at least they can visit them from time to time.

If someone had done a hideous crime, I'd rather see them in jail being tortured than just being killed. Remember, once dead they are not 'suffering' or being 'punished'. A lot of people who are sentenced to life imprisonment commit suicide (or try to) and for the state to kill them is giving them what they want!

Ultimately my point a) is the deciding factor. It doesn't matter how sure we are or how many safeguards are put in place, mistakes WILL happen from time to time. If they're all in jail we can at least do something about it, if we've already hung them then there's no going back.

philz

Have you got any idea how much it costs to keep somebody in prison? Why should we have to pay a fortune in taxes to keep some scumbag in a prison cell, they serve no use to society so might as well be dead in my opinion.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Like I said above.... a worthwhile gamble IMO.



This isn't about what would be nicer for the perpetrator but what society needs and wants.



Awwwwwww, my heart ******* bleeds! Then they would know how the poor victims family felt as a result of their scumbag relative killing them!

Ridiculous argument!



And to bring up your point......
When have you ever heard of life meaning life? Unless it is a mass serial killer, they'll be out in a few years with good behaviour.

Ask Mrs Bulger what "life in prison" or "detained at her majesty's pleasure" means??

It means, a cushy life in prison with video games and sports. No need to work for a living. Drugs. Get a grip. Prison is NOT torture as you keep calling it!

And about the "mistakes" thing again.....

If one innocent person got hung for every 10,000 murderers, tough.

I'd be well willing to accept those odds!

Not often folk get convicted wrongly thesedays with the advances in forensics and DNA you know!

I should be a politician!

Daz34

I seriously don't think hanging or lethal injection is strong enough. I want these sick b@stards to really suffer & have time to realise the enormity of their crimes & the consequences they have brought upon themselves.

I think they should be buried alive.

Darren

[Edited by Daz34 - 11/16/2003 1:28:44 PM]

NACRO

I'm against all state sponsored murder. The death penalty is in any case a let off, better to let them rot in prison denied any chance of a real life outside, existing without hope of liberty. Truly the worst form of vengence and punishment.
Plus if it turns out they were innocent we can at least try to make amends.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

lol @ Daz!

Why do people keep saying that a life in Prison is "hell" or "torture"?

Perhaps to us law-abiding citizens, it would be hell, but to these types its a walk in the park.

Prison educates them in their criminal ways and they come out as better "trained" criminals.

Re-habillitation? Bah, humbug! Doesn't happen!

alibi

How about compulsory organ donation or heart transplants for convicted murderers? At least they would be giving something back to society.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Do killers have a heart?

and would you want it?

alibi

Talizman,
Take your point,but if told that a suitable heart was available I would probably take it given the alternative.Hope none of us ever have to make that choice.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Reminds me of the hair transplant that Homer got in the Simpsons, where he assumed the alter-ego of the murderous hair-donor! lol

a2jcy

Hang all convicted of murder no exceptions
Life in prison means life
Rapist and child offenders to be hand cuffed striped and locked in a room for 20 minutes with mother and both grannies with very sharp objects to inflict as much pain as possible
Birch all yobs lifted during the week for house breaking/assault ect on Saturday mornings out side village hall ect
And all do gooders told to pis# off for ever and let the rest of us live in peace

bartmanuk

i couldn't agree more with wot philz said...

bartmanuk

yeh nice 1 a2jcy!!! lol

Dracoro

I agree and I personally believe that society wants to see these scum punished. The problem is what is 'punishment'? Some think lifetime of torture, some think hanging them. I personally think taking their life is what the pepertrator most wants and is the easy option for them. I want to see vicious criminals in pain! The death penalty is normally quick and relatively painless.
I agree, life should mean life etc. BTW I DON'T think prison is torture and didn't say as much either. I think they should be for certain criminals though. Jails should be made a nastier place where it really is a punishment. That's whats wrong with the current system. Prisons have become more of a holding area for criminals rather than a place of punishment for crimes against society. Criminals must come out of these places NEVER wanting to return.
Not sure where that statistic comes from, what if it was one in 10? Should we also hang murders that are victims of domestic violence who one day fought back etc??

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Dracoro, to come back at a couple of your points mate.....

With regards to the 1 in 10,000 thing.... in the absence of statistics, I just quoted the first number that came into my head. The number isn't really relevant as I simply used it to make my point, which was, that I'd be prepared to sacrifice lives in order to execute those convicted of murder.

If you think of it this way.... compare the amount of convicted killers put behind bars over the years against the "miscarriages of justice". They are far outweighed, as like I said above, due to forensic and DNA advancements, it should be a pretty conclusive conviction, therefore the risk of killing an "innocent" should be minimal.

IMHO, it is virtually impossible for someone to be murdered without the person responsible leaving any DNA or other evidence at the scene.

With regards to the "victims who fought back"....

What you will find in these scenarios are, that the accused, if convicted will be found guilty of a lesser charge of perhaps, culpable homicide due to the extremely mitigating circumstances of provocation etc etc.

Quite often, these convictions avoid even a jail sentence which in certain circumstances could be considered as justice.

My point is, that it would require a Murder conviction to send someone to meet their maker. Lesser charges would have to be considered at face value and each decided on its own merits.

[Edited by talizman - 11/16/2003 3:05:14 PM]

Leslie

The so called "punishment" has got to be something so unpleasant that a would be murderer will think twice about doing it. Crimes of Passion happen but I bet that the perpetrator would still have the thought of full State retribution in his mind. The punishment should be variable according to the Court's decision which would have the facts available at the end of the trial to help decide what actual penalty is correct. People who murder policemen, others to avoid detection, or by using murderous weapons durin a robbery, or full premeditated murder, or after sexual crimes should expect no mercy and should be despatched!

If that is fully realised, I still believe it would reduce the murder rate.

Les

Geezer

Shot from a distance? Hit unexpectedly from behind with a heavy instrument?

There are loads of ways to avoid it, miscarriages would be more commonplace than you imagine.

Also, your comment about the relatives of the perpertrator suffering being suitable as the relatives of the victim having to suffer is despicable.

Are you saying we should punish innocents because other innocents have suffered?

I know people who have suffered because they are relatives of victims of crim, and the last thing they would wish is for someone to suffer what they have to, even if they are the relatives of the person who committed the crime.

Grow up

Geezer

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Geezer,

I'll reply to your comments as I believe they are directed at me, although I could be wrong as you saw fit not to address any particular member when putting your points across.

With regards to your examples of cases where there may be little or no physical evidence. We must appreciate that there will always be exceptions to rules. That is why I said the vital words... "Virtually impossible"...

You also said....
Now, I'm not too clear on what this means due to your lack of punctuation and bad grammar, but I'm guessing you don't condone me lacking compassion for murderer's families?

Firstly, I never used the word "suitable" that you cite. What I did say was, that they would now know how the victims families felt, thats all.
If you feel the need to quote me, please get it right.
Nonetheless, I stand by my belief.... **** them!

If a relative of mine is murdered, I want the perpetrator put to death, plain and simple. As for their family... tough $hit!
What about mine?

Despicable? Perhaps. Justified? I think so.

Don't judge me, because you don't know me.

You said...
I too know people who have suffered, and the ones I know must be weaker or more vengeful than the ones you know, as I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to administer the lethal dose to the individual who ruined their lives themselves.

Please feel free to continue "quoting" me or judging my beliefs or opinions.

Wish I was whiter than white...





[Edited by talizman - 11/17/2003 3:37:34 PM]

Geezer

Talizman,
Would you be happy for your child to be executed if wrongly convicted of a capital crime? I think not. Nor do I think you would happily sit about saying, "oh well, I deserve to feel miserable" if someone close to you was executed for committing a capital crime.

People like you just rant on how much better this country would be if we brought back capital punishment without considering it's implications,or saying it would deter criminals, when patently it does not.

I am all for people who commit heinous crimes being snuffed out of society, we would be better off without them, but I would never ever vote for it(if we ever got the choice) because the execution of innocents is not (IMO) a reasonable price to pay.

Geezer

Brendan Hughes

Point 1 - this won't happen. It would mean the UK withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights, which is too big a political step to take. Don't all scream at Brussels, it's the Council of Europe in Strasbourg.

Other points;

Death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent - look at America, as stated before.

IMHO miscarriages of justice are probably more likely in the UK and American adversarial system, when a lawyer is paid to win a case whatever the truth, than the Napoleonic inquisitorial system, where a state investigator tries to piece together the facts. The argument against is that the state investigators are brought up as part of a bureaucracy and won't want to rock any boats. Jury's out on that one.

DNA might help avoid mistakes in comparison to the past, but only if there is not public pressure to find a victim. You can imagine News of the World printing "DNA TECHNICAL ERROR - SURELY THIS SCUM IS GUILTY?" when the analysis proves him innocent.

Cost of keeping someone in prison is generally quoted at 20-25k per year, I might be out of date on that.

The only real reason to have the death penalty is to satisfy the public that something's being done, whether or not it is. When murder rates falter for a few years after its introduction, then start to rise again, what do you call for next?

I don't know the answer, but I would like to believe in forced labour, at least they give something useful back to society during their sentence.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Geezer, contrary to what you think of my alleged "ranting", if you care to read my very first post on this topic, you will see that 99% of my opinions are that it doesn't work, and won't ever happen etc. The 1% is that I'd vote for it, given the choice.

Please don't generalise and say things like Like I said before, you do not know me, and have NO IDEA as to my beliefs or thoughts so stop quoting me and making invalid assumpions as you are ill-informed as to what drives me.

As for the question about "my child"....

"My child" as you put it, would never find themselves in a position where the authorities are accusing them of murder! (I hope)
Only "certain types" of people are unjustly accused, and decent folk tend not to be part of said group.
Wrong place wrong time? Nah!

Furthermore, I have NEVER said that it deters criminals, you are obviously confusing me with someone else's posts!

Read more carefully before YOU start ranting on, as I certainly do not "rant" about capital punishment.



[Edited by talizman - 11/17/2003 4:16:17 PM]