Would You Join Up?
16 September 2001, 10:13 PM
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I went paintballing recently, it sounds lame but it does make you think, I'm glad now I didn't go into the Para's ( a child hood dream). So no I won't be signing up.
However, I would go if it was that nessacary people were being called up.
Bob
However, I would go if it was that nessacary people were being called up.
Bob
16 September 2001, 10:43 PM
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My father was in the army for many years, and had we stayed living in Scotland i would probably have joined up as well (not much on the work front when i left school up there).
As a result, i've read lots of books, been to lots of stuff at camps etc and would happily have fought for my country.
until when older i visited several war sites with my father whilst spending time in france etc.
Once you've seen the size of the craters left by the shells from WW1 + WW2 and seen the destructive power they had back then, and the amount of people killed by what are by todays standards fairly primitive weapons. Makes you sit back and think what would happen if it all kicks off this time.
Bearing in mind the advances in weapon technology i dread to think what tanks, artillery + modern missiles can do now.
I've been to the somme, ypres and vimy ridge and seen the hundreds and thousands of names of dead and missing troops, walked through those graveyeards where white crosses stretch out beyond you like some horrendous optical illusion.
I want to grow up with my 2yr old kid and baby thats due soon thanks.
If conscription were brought in to force, i would seriously bob and weave away from any infantry conscription, that really does seem cannon fodder after witnessing the above.
At least in the days above you could at least see some of your enemies (and in some of the cases above you could have thrown stones at each other you were that close),
with tanks that will probably be able to fire shells from beyond the horizon and land mines designed to maime and cripple, deliberately laid to cause the poor unfortunate to scream there position away and frighten there comrades...
I'll pass on that for the time being thanks.
As a result, i've read lots of books, been to lots of stuff at camps etc and would happily have fought for my country.
until when older i visited several war sites with my father whilst spending time in france etc.
Once you've seen the size of the craters left by the shells from WW1 + WW2 and seen the destructive power they had back then, and the amount of people killed by what are by todays standards fairly primitive weapons. Makes you sit back and think what would happen if it all kicks off this time.
Bearing in mind the advances in weapon technology i dread to think what tanks, artillery + modern missiles can do now.
I've been to the somme, ypres and vimy ridge and seen the hundreds and thousands of names of dead and missing troops, walked through those graveyeards where white crosses stretch out beyond you like some horrendous optical illusion.
I want to grow up with my 2yr old kid and baby thats due soon thanks.
If conscription were brought in to force, i would seriously bob and weave away from any infantry conscription, that really does seem cannon fodder after witnessing the above.
At least in the days above you could at least see some of your enemies (and in some of the cases above you could have thrown stones at each other you were that close),
with tanks that will probably be able to fire shells from beyond the horizon and land mines designed to maime and cripple, deliberately laid to cause the poor unfortunate to scream there position away and frighten there comrades...
I'll pass on that for the time being thanks.
17 September 2001, 01:19 AM
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My best mate served in the Paras for 10 years. He passed P-companies test with flying colours and was a role model in his regiment.
In that time he saw many grim things, many sad sights and many great places. He received several medals for bravery, the Kosovo Medal, and the Bosnia medal. He left the Army last year after scenes in Kosovo made him realise this was not what he wanted to see for the rest of his life.
In that time, he completed tours (three operational) in Canada, Kenya, Cyprus, Australia, America, and a few in Europe. He saw sights that would make the most travelled jealous, but also the the most exposed to violence and death cringe.
He talks proudly of landing at airforce bases escorted by Tornado jets on each wing, of good times of team work and U.N peace keeping work-but he also tells of rooms of children de-capitated and slaughtered in Kosovo
For people that see what the Army do via the media-it might be something they think they could do. For someone like me, who received letters every week from their best mate telling of the horrors of war, its safe to say I for one, and being fairly brave and courageous would not want to jump at doing.
If however it was down to "its your duty" then there would be no option but to protect the young of this country if they are at threat etc etc. There is no way however I would support a war, were the aim was to retaliate by killing innocent people. I know enough ways of breaking my leg with guranteed healing to worry about "having to do it"
Its not a call I would want to make, and to be honest I dont think we would have to. There is a large number of ex-military who are on 12 year reserve (when they leave, they sign a document to say that for 12 years they can be called back to duty if needs arise) and this would be a very large number. My mate is one of them, but to his own admission has already said he for one (one of the hardest men I have met) if called up would come around with a baseball bat and say "hit me as hard as you can between the knee and ankle" so much is his hate for war and for killing.
Lets hope it does'nt come to that, and that what happens from now on does not mean the death and destruction of more innocent people, and that the people responsible are bought to trial or dealt with in the best way possible.
Regards
Ronnie
In that time he saw many grim things, many sad sights and many great places. He received several medals for bravery, the Kosovo Medal, and the Bosnia medal. He left the Army last year after scenes in Kosovo made him realise this was not what he wanted to see for the rest of his life.
In that time, he completed tours (three operational) in Canada, Kenya, Cyprus, Australia, America, and a few in Europe. He saw sights that would make the most travelled jealous, but also the the most exposed to violence and death cringe.
He talks proudly of landing at airforce bases escorted by Tornado jets on each wing, of good times of team work and U.N peace keeping work-but he also tells of rooms of children de-capitated and slaughtered in Kosovo
For people that see what the Army do via the media-it might be something they think they could do. For someone like me, who received letters every week from their best mate telling of the horrors of war, its safe to say I for one, and being fairly brave and courageous would not want to jump at doing.
If however it was down to "its your duty" then there would be no option but to protect the young of this country if they are at threat etc etc. There is no way however I would support a war, were the aim was to retaliate by killing innocent people. I know enough ways of breaking my leg with guranteed healing to worry about "having to do it"
Its not a call I would want to make, and to be honest I dont think we would have to. There is a large number of ex-military who are on 12 year reserve (when they leave, they sign a document to say that for 12 years they can be called back to duty if needs arise) and this would be a very large number. My mate is one of them, but to his own admission has already said he for one (one of the hardest men I have met) if called up would come around with a baseball bat and say "hit me as hard as you can between the knee and ankle" so much is his hate for war and for killing.
Lets hope it does'nt come to that, and that what happens from now on does not mean the death and destruction of more innocent people, and that the people responsible are bought to trial or dealt with in the best way possible.
Regards
Ronnie
17 September 2001, 03:06 PM
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I think if it came down to it I probably would, I don't think they would take me anyway as I might slow them down 
But in all seriousness "Yes" to stamp out this **** thats ruining all of our lives!
But in all seriousness "Yes" to stamp out this **** thats ruining all of our lives!
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17 September 2001, 03:31 PM
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Army life is not for me I'm afraid so would not sign up and would be somewhat against being called up, though I doubt they would as I have asthma, but that probably don't count for anything.
17 September 2001, 04:39 PM
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If that time ever came then I would look to join the air force or ground crew. I know I could never kill or harm someone intentionally with a knife or rifle, so there would be no point in putting me in the infantry.
Now, however, if it was me in a fat fighter, it would be "Fox 3 baby" - "Toast."
No problem.
Now, however, if it was me in a fat fighter, it would be "Fox 3 baby" - "Toast."
No problem.
17 September 2001, 04:40 PM
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To quote Python..
When danger rear'd its ugly head
I bravely turned around and fled
[This message has been edited by mega_stream (edited 17 September 2001).]
When danger rear'd its ugly head
I bravely turned around and fled
[This message has been edited by mega_stream (edited 17 September 2001).]
18 September 2001, 12:50 AM
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I already done my bit 1980-1986 and saw one conflict, might be worth joining the TA now just to get some NBC kit. Unfortunately i think that a great number of people in this country and abroad will die, not fighting in the front line, but here at home from a more sinister and deadly form of warfare in the shape of an aerosol can.
Personally I would be implementing a policy of internment immediately, lock every suspect up and then start asking questions, this is war isn`t it?
Personally I would be implementing a policy of internment immediately, lock every suspect up and then start asking questions, this is war isn`t it?
18 September 2001, 01:01 PM
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I'm currently serving in the Territorial Army and I've just spent the last 2 weeks on a course for promotion to Sergeant. I'm in a Royal Engineers specialist unit (Geographical). If called up, although I would rather be at home, I would serve as best I could wherever I was sent. If that meant killing enemy troops, so be it. Obviously I would rather not, but I would simply be doing my duty.
Incidently, if you are injured when called up, as it would only take a few weeks to heal, I suspect you would only delay any impending call up. Those that are the most likely to be called up are in the 18-25 age bracket and that aren't in exempt occupations (doctor, police, farmers etc). For conscription to be taking place, WWIII will be well underway.
For the record, the infantry and tanks would be my last choice of units to go to war in.
A final point that may be of interest to ex-regular soldiers who are still on the reserve list. If you join the TA, you are automatically taken off the reserve list. Assuming you join a TA unit with less chance of being called up than your old regular unit, you will make yourself less likely to be called up (if that's what you want). You don't have to serve the full 3 years TA engagement period either. Most TA units let people leave whenever they want, but keep you "on the books" for the remainder of your 3 years.
Incidently, if you are injured when called up, as it would only take a few weeks to heal, I suspect you would only delay any impending call up. Those that are the most likely to be called up are in the 18-25 age bracket and that aren't in exempt occupations (doctor, police, farmers etc). For conscription to be taking place, WWIII will be well underway.
For the record, the infantry and tanks would be my last choice of units to go to war in.
A final point that may be of interest to ex-regular soldiers who are still on the reserve list. If you join the TA, you are automatically taken off the reserve list. Assuming you join a TA unit with less chance of being called up than your old regular unit, you will make yourself less likely to be called up (if that's what you want). You don't have to serve the full 3 years TA engagement period either. Most TA units let people leave whenever they want, but keep you "on the books" for the remainder of your 3 years.
18 September 2001, 07:14 PM
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I hope that Neil's questions are purely hypothetical, but they made me think.
We all have a trigger point, and may all be closer to it than we dare imagine. Okay, so trouble in New York doesn't get many of us rushing to sign up. That's America's problem, right? But what if the same thing happens to Canary Warf Tower? (Remember, flights over London were immediately stopped.) Or a suicide bomber blows up your family?
We all live in a global village, and can no longer turn a blind eye. America's problems, Israel, Palestine, Afghanistan, Bin Laden and the Taliban, whoever - they're everyone's problems. And right now they're just outside your door, and they want to come in.
Richard.
PS Apologies for gloomy post
Edited because I don't want that last sentence about terrorism being outside your door to taken as some kind of racist/religious reference to the many good and well-meaning ethnic minorities who contribute greatly to the diversity and quality of life in Britain and whom I consider most welcome to our country.
[This message has been edited by Hoppy (edited 18 September 2001).]
We all have a trigger point, and may all be closer to it than we dare imagine. Okay, so trouble in New York doesn't get many of us rushing to sign up. That's America's problem, right? But what if the same thing happens to Canary Warf Tower? (Remember, flights over London were immediately stopped.) Or a suicide bomber blows up your family?
We all live in a global village, and can no longer turn a blind eye. America's problems, Israel, Palestine, Afghanistan, Bin Laden and the Taliban, whoever - they're everyone's problems. And right now they're just outside your door, and they want to come in.
Richard.
PS Apologies for gloomy post
Edited because I don't want that last sentence about terrorism being outside your door to taken as some kind of racist/religious reference to the many good and well-meaning ethnic minorities who contribute greatly to the diversity and quality of life in Britain and whom I consider most welcome to our country.
[This message has been edited by Hoppy (edited 18 September 2001).]
19 September 2001, 11:47 AM
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Its an interesting concept, but I honestly dont know how I would react if I had to go into battle. Modern warfare is scary. Mankind has got so good at perfecting the art of genocide that the survival rate for most infantry soldiers would be pretty **** poor if all new "Innovations" were to be used.
For example, Ever heard of Flechettes?
Shrapnel is now old hat. Flechettes, taken from the french word for arrow is the new shrapnel and is disturbing to know what its capabilities are. Its a finned arrow thrown out when a projectile explodes. Because of its shape it flies 3 times as far as shrapnel and when it enters the body it is designed to follow a contorted route and not in a straight line, thus maximising the amount of organs it can shred
I think the most disturbing thing about it is that somewhere, some bloke got up in the morning and said to himself "I know I'll create a weapon which is guranteed to make mincemeat of the human body, but STILL keeps the person alive!!!"
I could go on about the new type of machine gun which can fire 12000 rounds a minute (normal ones manage about 600) but I wont.
Warfare is just to risky, For that reason I prolly try to get into the RAF as ground crew with my Aircraft Engineering qualifications.
astraboy.
For example, Ever heard of Flechettes?
Shrapnel is now old hat. Flechettes, taken from the french word for arrow is the new shrapnel and is disturbing to know what its capabilities are. Its a finned arrow thrown out when a projectile explodes. Because of its shape it flies 3 times as far as shrapnel and when it enters the body it is designed to follow a contorted route and not in a straight line, thus maximising the amount of organs it can shred
I think the most disturbing thing about it is that somewhere, some bloke got up in the morning and said to himself "I know I'll create a weapon which is guranteed to make mincemeat of the human body, but STILL keeps the person alive!!!"
I could go on about the new type of machine gun which can fire 12000 rounds a minute (normal ones manage about 600) but I wont.
Warfare is just to risky, For that reason I prolly try to get into the RAF as ground crew with my Aircraft Engineering qualifications.
astraboy.
19 September 2001, 01:16 PM
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No. If conscipted to go I would try to find a way out. I don't want to leave my son/wife without a father/husband because some **** in Whitehall says so. I don't wish to end up rotting on some forgotten Afghan mountain roadway 'cos Tony boy fancies riding on the crest of some popular misguided crusade
I would, however, defend this country to the death. As I have said in other posts, we cannot defeat these people, but we can defend against them (the Yanks should understand this after getting their ***** kicked in Vietnam).
Astraboy,
Flechettes are nothing new, they were used in WWI on advancing infantry, but they were dropped by plane then. And those electric gatling guns can fire a whole lot more than that! It is extremely worrying to think that someones job is to create more effective ways of killing or maiming people. These people work in the so called civilised west as well, in well paid jobs, not some fanatical weirdo with a beard in Afghanistan.
People would do well to remeber that the worst excesses in human history have been perpetrated by first world countries in the last century before they label the Islamic world
Geezer
I would, however, defend this country to the death. As I have said in other posts, we cannot defeat these people, but we can defend against them (the Yanks should understand this after getting their ***** kicked in Vietnam).
Astraboy,
Flechettes are nothing new, they were used in WWI on advancing infantry, but they were dropped by plane then. And those electric gatling guns can fire a whole lot more than that! It is extremely worrying to think that someones job is to create more effective ways of killing or maiming people. These people work in the so called civilised west as well, in well paid jobs, not some fanatical weirdo with a beard in Afghanistan.
People would do well to remeber that the worst excesses in human history have been perpetrated by first world countries in the last century before they label the Islamic world
Geezer
19 September 2001, 01:31 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Geezer:
<B>those electric gatling guns can fire a whole lot more than that!
Geezer[/quote]
You saw Tomorrows world as well? That thing scared the **** out of me.
BZZZZZZZZT! and that was 600 rounds gone.
Frightening.
The guy that invented it was a pacifist too. He reckoned that it would end warfare as it is so lethal.
But thats what they said about the Machine gun.
astraboy.
<B>those electric gatling guns can fire a whole lot more than that!
Geezer[/quote]
You saw Tomorrows world as well? That thing scared the **** out of me.
BZZZZZZZZT! and that was 600 rounds gone.
Frightening.
The guy that invented it was a pacifist too. He reckoned that it would end warfare as it is so lethal.
But thats what they said about the Machine gun.
astraboy.
19 September 2001, 01:35 PM
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No, I didn't. I was talking about the type developed by the US in the 60's. They actually got prototypes up to 20krpm!
What was different about the ones on Tomorrows World? It must be something dreadful
Geezer
What was different about the ones on Tomorrows World? It must be something dreadful
Geezer
19 September 2001, 02:09 PM
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I would have done when Britain was great.
But now it's full of theives, scumbags, freeloaders, swindlers it leaves little to be patriotic about.
Edited to say I'm referring to British citizens and not a comment on immigration.
[This message has been edited by DavidBrown (edited 19 September 2001).]
But now it's full of theives, scumbags, freeloaders, swindlers it leaves little to be patriotic about.
Edited to say I'm referring to British citizens and not a comment on immigration.
[This message has been edited by DavidBrown (edited 19 September 2001).]
19 September 2001, 04:23 PM
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An interesting view David. Unfortunately, Britain has always been full of freeloaders, swindlers, thieves and scumbags, so I take it that when you mean when Britain was great was when we oppressed large portions of foreign populations with our Imperialistic warmongering?
Geezer
Geezer
19 September 2001, 11:02 PM
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Not a chance of me going!
Would fight for the planet, but not killing fellow human beings, no way. What I mean is if we had to fight an Alien race (far fetched I know!) then yes, I would fight for the planet, but I am not dying for this.
The world needs to sort it out and all of us work together.
Ok, that's my pennies worth.
Would fight for the planet, but not killing fellow human beings, no way. What I mean is if we had to fight an Alien race (far fetched I know!) then yes, I would fight for the planet, but I am not dying for this.
The world needs to sort it out and all of us work together.
Ok, that's my pennies worth.
20 September 2001, 03:26 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Geezer:
<B>No, I didn't. I was talking about the type developed by the US in the 60's. They actually got prototypes up to 20krpm!
What was different about the ones on Tomorrows World? It must be something dreadful
Geezer[/quote]
Yeah it was a box on a tripod and the rounds were fired electricaly. say BZZZZZT! out loud. That's the sound it made and thats the time it took to do 600 rounds. Normal machine gun rounds have 100m between then if they are fired full auto. this thing has a few inches between rounds.
Frightening.
astraboy.
<B>No, I didn't. I was talking about the type developed by the US in the 60's. They actually got prototypes up to 20krpm!
What was different about the ones on Tomorrows World? It must be something dreadful
Geezer[/quote]
Yeah it was a box on a tripod and the rounds were fired electricaly. say BZZZZZT! out loud. That's the sound it made and thats the time it took to do 600 rounds. Normal machine gun rounds have 100m between then if they are fired full auto. this thing has a few inches between rounds.
Frightening.
astraboy.
21 September 2001, 02:11 PM
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Hmm, intersting one with some interesting replies. Jerome good on ya. [1]
Geezer, I hope you were joking!
[1] I've been in the TA for 18 years, (8 as a substantive Sgt).
The chances of getting called up are low, conscription is an all but impossibility.
I find comments from people who decide they want to live under the freedom, fought for and defended by others (but wouldn't fight themselves), cheeky beyond extreme! If you don't want this level of freedom, go elsewhere. I'm not a blair fan but he's acting in the interests of all by fighting (or offering to).
Would I WANT to go and fight..... hell no.. only a psychopath would WANT to.
I do believe that sometimes you have to "Pay the piper" though. Oddly enough, my trades make me a prime candidate to end up at the front (if we were called up) BEFORE a lot of the regular Army turned up (Armoured Reconnasance).
Fortunately my main trade now is Challenger 2 MBT Gunnery simulator operator, so could even end up on 'training' duties? I hope I never have to find out?
I have fired Hughes Chain gun which is basically a Gatling gun (electrically operated with revolving barrells). Too accurate, still prefer GPMG.
Remember figures quoted for RPM are 'cyclic' and are limited by the cooling down required by the barrells and the ability to feed ammunition in an uninterrupted format. Most belt fed ammunition comes in boxes of 200 rnds and you can link 2 sometimes 3 boxes together.
LOL, Now imagining a shooting engagement which involved a 600 round technique/burst.
Mike.
[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 21 September 2001).]
Geezer, I hope you were joking!
[1] I've been in the TA for 18 years, (8 as a substantive Sgt).
The chances of getting called up are low, conscription is an all but impossibility.
I find comments from people who decide they want to live under the freedom, fought for and defended by others (but wouldn't fight themselves), cheeky beyond extreme! If you don't want this level of freedom, go elsewhere. I'm not a blair fan but he's acting in the interests of all by fighting (or offering to).
Would I WANT to go and fight..... hell no.. only a psychopath would WANT to.
I do believe that sometimes you have to "Pay the piper" though. Oddly enough, my trades make me a prime candidate to end up at the front (if we were called up) BEFORE a lot of the regular Army turned up (Armoured Reconnasance).
Fortunately my main trade now is Challenger 2 MBT Gunnery simulator operator, so could even end up on 'training' duties? I hope I never have to find out?
I have fired Hughes Chain gun which is basically a Gatling gun (electrically operated with revolving barrells). Too accurate, still prefer GPMG.
Remember figures quoted for RPM are 'cyclic' and are limited by the cooling down required by the barrells and the ability to feed ammunition in an uninterrupted format. Most belt fed ammunition comes in boxes of 200 rnds and you can link 2 sometimes 3 boxes together.
LOL, Now imagining a shooting engagement which involved a 600 round technique/burst.
Mike.
[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 21 September 2001).]
21 September 2001, 02:41 PM
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Been there, seen it, done it.
Unfortuanatly, although we have the best troops in the world, our "leaders" are made up of Ruperts and Henrys.
Private schools, daddies got a pile in the country, another G&T old chap, chocks away!
Give me strength! And put the SNCO's +WO's in charge!
Errrrm.....I'll get off me soap box then.
Oh, the question?
I'm with Astraboy:- RAF Groundcrew! And yes, I'm available.(forty+, fat+, ****+++)
john.
Unfortuanatly, although we have the best troops in the world, our "leaders" are made up of Ruperts and Henrys.
Private schools, daddies got a pile in the country, another G&T old chap, chocks away!
Give me strength! And put the SNCO's +WO's in charge!
Errrrm.....I'll get off me soap box then.
Oh, the question?
I'm with Astraboy:- RAF Groundcrew! And yes, I'm available.(forty+, fat+, ****+++)
john.
21 September 2001, 02:52 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by john&nicci:
<B>.....Give me strength! And put the SNCO's +WO's in charge![/quote]
Hehe, we are!
An intersting fact is that if anyone wanted to "get rid" of a Sergeant, it would have to be done by a Colonel (i.e. somebody <B>8 ranks higher!</B>.
<B>.....Give me strength! And put the SNCO's +WO's in charge![/quote]
Hehe, we are!
An intersting fact is that if anyone wanted to "get rid" of a Sergeant, it would have to be done by a Colonel (i.e. somebody <B>8 ranks higher!</B>.
21 September 2001, 05:56 PM
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A quote I heard a while back about the British army and men vs officers:
"Lions led by Donkeys"
Can't say I disagree entirely...
Mike,
I went on a course in February (NBCD Instructor) at Winterbourne Gunner (next to Porton Down - gulp!) and there were some guys on the course who spend their time playing (sorry training) on the kit you work on. I was very jealous that some guys get paid to play computer games in the TA I also miss the old "gimpy" as well - I was a gunner in the Infantry for 2 years...
I also couldn't agree more with the sentiment of freedom & democracy comes at a price - in theory. Unfortunately a reluctant soldier is a crap soldier. I wouldn't want some tree hugging conscript next to me on the battlefield.
[This message has been edited by Jerome (edited 21 September 2001).]
"Lions led by Donkeys"
Can't say I disagree entirely...
Mike,
I went on a course in February (NBCD Instructor) at Winterbourne Gunner (next to Porton Down - gulp!) and there were some guys on the course who spend their time playing (sorry training) on the kit you work on. I was very jealous that some guys get paid to play computer games in the TA
I also miss the old "gimpy" as well - I was a gunner in the Infantry for 2 years...I also couldn't agree more with the sentiment of freedom & democracy comes at a price - in theory. Unfortunately a reluctant soldier is a crap soldier. I wouldn't want some tree hugging conscript next to me on the battlefield.
[This message has been edited by Jerome (edited 21 September 2001).]
21 September 2001, 06:08 PM
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Mountain warfare/survival was one of my fields of qualification,,,,,,,
There is <B>no ******* way</B> I would be happy at being sent to Afghanistan.
Be different if George and Tony joined up in my Company though
There is <B>no ******* way</B> I would be happy at being sent to Afghanistan.
Be different if George and Tony joined up in my Company though