Into Europe or not?
13 June 2001, 12:55 AM
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I'm quite happy with the idea of using Euros, no changing money to go on hols, easy to compare prices around Europe, being the lazy sod I am, anything to make life easier is good 
13 June 2001, 11:26 AM
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I've managed to start a fair amount of discussion about Labours landslide, so now I thought I'd start one on the UK and the EU.
Personally, I am against the UK being in the EU on principle, and against losing the Pound, also on principle.
On a more reasoned basis, I remain utterly unconvinced that adopting Euros would benefit the UK. Politicians, Businessmen, Financial Institutions alike cannot agree on the subject and contradict each other. So how is a layman like myself supposed to be convinced?
My personal view is that the EU is a horrendously bureaucratic and expensive gravy train that benefits the smaller countries only.
Anyone agree/disagree with me? Judging by Labour's landslide, most people are for the EU/Euro's. Does anyone care to give a simple, easy to understand, reasoned argument why we should/shouldn't join...
Personally, I am against the UK being in the EU on principle, and against losing the Pound, also on principle.
On a more reasoned basis, I remain utterly unconvinced that adopting Euros would benefit the UK. Politicians, Businessmen, Financial Institutions alike cannot agree on the subject and contradict each other. So how is a layman like myself supposed to be convinced?
My personal view is that the EU is a horrendously bureaucratic and expensive gravy train that benefits the smaller countries only.
Anyone agree/disagree with me? Judging by Labour's landslide, most people are for the EU/Euro's. Does anyone care to give a simple, easy to understand, reasoned argument why we should/shouldn't join...
13 June 2001, 01:28 PM
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I'm a bit of a traditionalist myself. Personally I would hate to see us lose the Pound. Did you know that the British monetary system was based on the Roman system during their occupation 2000 years ago? The old pre-decimalization pennies were expressed as a "d" from their times as Roman "denarius". Our monetary system has a lot of history and it would be a great shame to lose it.
I would also take us out of the EU if it were up to me. They way things are going we will end up as a middling state in a federal Europe unable to set any laws of our own and no control over our spending or taxation. What future is that for a country that at one time had empire upon which the sun never set? I'm proud of our history and hate to see our identity blurred into a Euro-state.
Just my opinion mind…
I would also take us out of the EU if it were up to me. They way things are going we will end up as a middling state in a federal Europe unable to set any laws of our own and no control over our spending or taxation. What future is that for a country that at one time had empire upon which the sun never set? I'm proud of our history and hate to see our identity blurred into a Euro-state.
Just my opinion mind…
13 June 2001, 04:38 PM
#5
Common Market - Good
Federal Europe / Europe imposed laws - BAD !!!!!!!!!
Euro - at possibly £1500 each to change over to another currency - thats a lot of money exchanged for holiday pocket money !!!!!!
Mick
Federal Europe / Europe imposed laws - BAD !!!!!!!!!
Euro - at possibly £1500 each to change over to another currency - thats a lot of money exchanged for holiday pocket money !!!!!!
Mick
13 June 2001, 04:53 PM
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Don't really care either way about the pound now - as far as I'm concerned, it went in 1971 when it was decimalised. It's now just the Euro by another name. Despite what the politicians would have us believe, we've already given up our democratic, judicial and fiscal autonomy to Europe through the treaties of Maastricht and Nice. Now, it's just a matter of timing as to when they tell us that these things are implemented. As far as I'm aware, these treaties can't be undone without a fight - and I do mean WAR
Being a member of the EU has already cost us billions more than we'll ever benefit from it. Now, some may say that's very socialist and generous of us . I say charity should begin at home. Our leaders should be asking why there's a hole in the EU finances of many billions of Euros a year. This money is mismanaged at best, and misappropriated at worst, by those in charge of it. The EU auditors have refused to sign the accounts for years, yet no individual government shouts about it. Why not? Decide for yourself - I have
Brian
Being a member of the EU has already cost us billions more than we'll ever benefit from it. Now, some may say that's very socialist and generous of us
. I say charity should begin at home. Our leaders should be asking why there's a hole in the EU finances of many billions of Euros a year. This money is mismanaged at best, and misappropriated at worst, by those in charge of it. The EU auditors have refused to sign the accounts for years, yet no individual government shouts about it. Why not? Decide for yourself - I have Brian
13 June 2001, 06:22 PM
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What narks me about the "euro debate" is that all the companies that say a single currency would be good for business are "Mega-Corp International" types and the like, and the Managing Director making the statement (and sucking up to Blur at the same time) is probably a foreigner anyway!!!
Bob the Builder, Florence the Flower shop, Gary the Gardener and so on will not benefit at all (yet will have to fork out for all the conversions, paperwork and extra beaurocracy).
mb
Bob the Builder, Florence the Flower shop, Gary the Gardener and so on will not benefit at all (yet will have to fork out for all the conversions, paperwork and extra beaurocracy).
mb
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14 June 2001, 09:03 AM
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Euro v Pound - Its just a unit of currency, that's all. Stuff tradition.
I would regard anything that brings nations and people closer together on a European/global scale as a good thing, but some of our longer-standing 'institutions' may have to fall in the process. Time for an overhaul....
Andrew
I would regard anything that brings nations and people closer together on a European/global scale as a good thing, but some of our longer-standing 'institutions' may have to fall in the process. Time for an overhaul....
Andrew
14 June 2001, 09:30 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by andrew6321:
<B>Euro v Pound - Its just a unit of currency, that's all. Stuff tradition.
[/quote]
Wrong. It's also a mark of identity for the country. "Stuff tradition"?? A bit harsh.
Another question (uk residents only ). Do you consider yourselves..
a) English / Scottish / Welsh
b) British
c) European
I would answer b), but more and more people in England are starting to think themselves more English than British and not very European at all. I would how this wonder effect a referendum on the Euro...
[This message has been edited by Nimbus (edited 14 June 2001).]
<B>Euro v Pound - Its just a unit of currency, that's all. Stuff tradition.
[/quote]
Wrong. It's also a mark of identity for the country. "Stuff tradition"?? A bit harsh.
Another question (uk residents only
). Do you consider yourselves..a) English / Scottish / Welsh
b) British
c) European
I would answer b), but more and more people in England are starting to think themselves more English than British and not very European at all. I would how this wonder effect a referendum on the Euro...
[This message has been edited by Nimbus (edited 14 June 2001).]
14 June 2001, 09:45 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nimbus:
[B] Wrong. It's also a mark of identity for the country. "Stuff tradition"?? A bit harsh.
Nimbus - it isn't harsh. Passports and flags represent national identity far more than any unit of currency, which, as you pointed out earlier, has already changed once in the last 30 years.
I think this has more to do with the 'queen's head' factor, rather than any valid argument about currency and trade. Which brings me back to my original point...
btw - Scottish dad, East Anglian mum - I regard myself as British, with 'republican' tendencies...
cheers
[B] Wrong. It's also a mark of identity for the country. "Stuff tradition"?? A bit harsh.
Nimbus - it isn't harsh. Passports and flags represent national identity far more than any unit of currency, which, as you pointed out earlier, has already changed once in the last 30 years.
I think this has more to do with the 'queen's head' factor, rather than any valid argument about currency and trade. Which brings me back to my original point...
btw - Scottish dad, East Anglian mum - I regard myself as British, with 'republican' tendencies...
cheers
14 June 2001, 10:37 AM
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Andrew,
I agree that it's not the biggest representative of national identity, but it is one none then less. Yes we did have a huge change 30 years ago, but it is still Sterling (GBP).
Republicanism? Personally I'm more of a royalist. Not because I pertuculaly like or respect the current lot but more out of tradition and a sense of our history. I don't know how people could think about changing something that has been a huge part of our culture for hundreds of years.
I'm not adverse to change. Just change for changes sake...
I agree that it's not the biggest representative of national identity, but it is one none then less. Yes we did have a huge change 30 years ago, but it is still Sterling (GBP).
Republicanism? Personally I'm more of a royalist. Not because I pertuculaly like or respect the current lot but more out of tradition and a sense of our history. I don't know how people could think about changing something that has been a huge part of our culture for hundreds of years.
I'm not adverse to change. Just change for changes sake...
14 June 2001, 10:53 AM
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Nimbus,
As the old saying goes: "what's in a name?"...I'm far more interested in what its worth, rather than what its called, or who's head is on the back
Talking of 'heads' - the French don't seem to have lost their sense of tradition, despite disposing of their own royals. Indeed the French revolution has been integrated into their heritage quite nicely. The buildings are still there to see, and Paris is still full of tourists...
cheers
Andrew
[This message has been edited by andrew6321 (edited 14 June 2001).]
As the old saying goes: "what's in a name?"...I'm far more interested in what its worth, rather than what its called, or who's head is on the back
Talking of 'heads' - the French don't seem to have lost their sense of tradition, despite disposing of their own royals. Indeed the French revolution has been integrated into their heritage quite nicely. The buildings are still there to see, and Paris is still full of tourists...
cheers
Andrew
[This message has been edited by andrew6321 (edited 14 June 2001).]
14 June 2001, 05:48 PM
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I'm quite chuffed to see quite a lot of well reasoned arguments on this, which is actually quite a tricky subject due to the wide range of implications and the fact that we don't really know how much change there would be.
I agree that simply as a unit of currency, the pound is just a means for exchange of good/services and a measure of wealth, etc. so it doesn't really matter what we have or what it's called. Once any 'conversion' has taken place it would make trade simpler throughout Europe which would eventually benefit more businesses.
To temper that, a certain amount of tradition is good and as British (my standpoint) we should retain a level of history and pride in the UK. But, having said that, the dinosours did die out and it would be a shame to be left behind in Europe due to a, dare I say it, biggoted view?!?
Now, on the idea of a European Republic, I feel that takes things a little too far, especially if, as already pointed out, it's as mismanaged as things are now. After all, who won the war!
Joke, btw, flame suit on
I agree that simply as a unit of currency, the pound is just a means for exchange of good/services and a measure of wealth, etc. so it doesn't really matter what we have or what it's called. Once any 'conversion' has taken place it would make trade simpler throughout Europe which would eventually benefit more businesses.
To temper that, a certain amount of tradition is good and as British (my standpoint) we should retain a level of history and pride in the UK. But, having said that, the dinosours did die out and it would be a shame to be left behind in Europe due to a, dare I say it, biggoted view?!?
Now, on the idea of a European Republic, I feel that takes things a little too far, especially if, as already pointed out, it's as mismanaged as things are now. After all, who won the war!
Joke, btw, flame suit on
14 June 2001, 08:24 PM
#16
There are reasons why currencies fluctuate against one another. If they are tied together disasters can occur. Look at what happened when we entered the ERM
I can't say I fully understand the implications myself. BUT I am sure that most of the people who spout forth 'encouraging' folk to support the economic and monetary union that we would be pledging ourselves to, do not fully understand either.
Mick
I can't say I fully understand the implications myself. BUT I am sure that most of the people who spout forth 'encouraging' folk to support the economic and monetary union that we would be pledging ourselves to, do not fully understand either.
Mick
15 June 2001, 08:35 AM
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Mick > I agree that on either side of the debate people don't really know what they're talking about, it's just too complicated.
Looking at the exchange rate question, it is one I forgot to think about yesterday. Without trying to contradict my view that a single currency would probably be beneficial in the long run, it is indeed tricky to 'line up' each currency initially. As it stands the high value of the pound makes it relatively cheaper to buy things abroad. Great for us going to the continent for holidays but it also means we buy all there goods which puts pressure on UK business as it costs more to export back to the EU.
Inflation is another problem too. It can be caused in two ways, being pulled up by demand for goods exeeding supply which will allow sellers to increase price, or increases in the costs of production can force prices up. Attempts at lowering the value of the pound to enter a single currency would have the effect of making imports more expensive, and as we import a lot of raw materials it would force production costs up and thus raise inflation, which would in turn lower the value of the pound again.
It's all a bit of a minefield really and there's so many different views and theories and things can so easily switch from being good to bad that I reckon we should all just stay in bed
Looking at the exchange rate question, it is one I forgot to think about yesterday. Without trying to contradict my view that a single currency would probably be beneficial in the long run, it is indeed tricky to 'line up' each currency initially. As it stands the high value of the pound makes it relatively cheaper to buy things abroad. Great for us going to the continent for holidays but it also means we buy all there goods which puts pressure on UK business as it costs more to export back to the EU.
Inflation is another problem too. It can be caused in two ways, being pulled up by demand for goods exeeding supply which will allow sellers to increase price, or increases in the costs of production can force prices up. Attempts at lowering the value of the pound to enter a single currency would have the effect of making imports more expensive, and as we import a lot of raw materials it would force production costs up and thus raise inflation, which would in turn lower the value of the pound again.
It's all a bit of a minefield really and there's so many different views and theories and things can so easily switch from being good to bad that I reckon we should all just stay in bed
15 June 2001, 08:58 AM
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Nice debate.
Im definately for pulling out of europe more than we are now.
The differences compared to our closest neighbour (Frnace for those without a mpa ) is unreal (speaking as someone who works for a French company).
If you want an example of how far apart our thinking really is, look at the current situation where the 2 most senior people in AXA have been arrested for money laundering. What have that actually done? Well they have moved business to a more tax efficent place. Isnt that a massive industry in the UK? (its called offshore, and covers loads of different financial institutions in different ways).
If we do go into Europe properly there will HAVE to be 1 tax system, 1 interest rate, 1 currency etc .......
It wont work if this doesnt happen.
Look at the Irish economy, thats starting to suffer now, they need higher interest rates, but they no longer have the ability to change them!!!
robski
Im definately for pulling out of europe more than we are now.
The differences compared to our closest neighbour (Frnace for those without a mpa
) is unreal (speaking as someone who works for a French company).If you want an example of how far apart our thinking really is, look at the current situation where the 2 most senior people in AXA have been arrested for money laundering. What have that actually done? Well they have moved business to a more tax efficent place. Isnt that a massive industry in the UK? (its called offshore, and covers loads of different financial institutions in different ways).
If we do go into Europe properly there will HAVE to be 1 tax system, 1 interest rate, 1 currency etc .......
It wont work if this doesnt happen.
Look at the Irish economy, thats starting to suffer now, they need higher interest rates, but they no longer have the ability to change them!!!
robski
15 June 2001, 11:35 AM
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It just seems that people in the UK do not feel part of Europe because of 21 miles of water. We like to align ourselves more closely to the US, but they don't want us!
The UK cannot survive on its own, it simply isn't strong enough economically. I can understand peoples reluctance to have the Euro, but those who don't think we should be in the EU are advocating economic suicide. Sure, we trade with the rest of the world alot, but the bulk of it is with the EU. The favouravle conditions made by being part of a freetrade area far outweigh the few penalties we have to pay.
A single currency is the way to go, for everyone, not just the EU. People wish to hold on to Sterling for mainly sentimantal reasons. It might cost a little to implement, but the next generation will wonder what all the fuss was all about, just like decimilisation and the dropping of imperial measurements. My only contention is that we should adopt the Dollar, not the Euro, as alot of international trade is already done in dollars.
Just my opinion, of course.
Geezer
The UK cannot survive on its own, it simply isn't strong enough economically. I can understand peoples reluctance to have the Euro, but those who don't think we should be in the EU are advocating economic suicide. Sure, we trade with the rest of the world alot, but the bulk of it is with the EU. The favouravle conditions made by being part of a freetrade area far outweigh the few penalties we have to pay.
A single currency is the way to go, for everyone, not just the EU. People wish to hold on to Sterling for mainly sentimantal reasons. It might cost a little to implement, but the next generation will wonder what all the fuss was all about, just like decimilisation and the dropping of imperial measurements. My only contention is that we should adopt the Dollar, not the Euro, as alot of international trade is already done in dollars.
Just my opinion, of course.
Geezer
15 June 2001, 11:52 AM
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Geezer,
I couldn't resist replying to your post.
>It just seems that people in the UK do not feel part of Europe because of 21 miles of water. We like to align ourselves more closely to the US, but they don't want us!
I don't want to be 'aligned' with any country other than the UK!
>The UK cannot survive on its own, it simply isn't strong enough economically.
How are we surviving right now then? Are the rest of the EU threatening to penalise us if we don't join completely? Sounds like we're being held to ransom.
> Economic suicide.
Mmmm. I have a colleague who would argue the exact opposite...
>Sure, we trade with the rest of the world alot, but the bulk of it is with the EU. The favouravle conditions made by being part of a freetrade area far outweigh the few penalties we have to pay.
Few penalties!!!!!!!
How many billions do we contribute every year! Also, I cannot believe that the EU would penalise the UK through trade tariffs so badly it would cost that much. The rest of Europe needs our custom as much as we need theirs. It might be a bit more expensive to get it from elsewhere, but not *that* much.
And when you say "most of our trade", it's just over half, I believe.
>A single currency is the way to go, for everyone, not just the EU.
Still not convinced.
>People wish to hold on to Sterling for mainly sentimantal reasons.
Too right.
>It might cost a little to implement,
Yeah right. It will cost billions. Not to mention the amount that retailers etc will rip off the unsuspecting public (like they did with decimalisation)
>and the dropping of imperial measurements.
I haven't dropped imperial measurements! I have no idea of my own height or weight in metric. 5'11' and 12 stone 7 lbs thank you very much. Not to mention MILES per GALLON.
> My only contention is that we should adopt the Dollar, not the Euro, as alot of international trade is already done in dollars.
Agreed. Better the dollar than the Euro. *If* we *have* to drop Sterling.
[This message has been edited by Jerome (edited 15 June 2001).]
I couldn't resist replying to your post.
>It just seems that people in the UK do not feel part of Europe because of 21 miles of water. We like to align ourselves more closely to the US, but they don't want us!
I don't want to be 'aligned' with any country other than the UK!
>The UK cannot survive on its own, it simply isn't strong enough economically.
How are we surviving right now then? Are the rest of the EU threatening to penalise us if we don't join completely? Sounds like we're being held to ransom.
> Economic suicide.
Mmmm. I have a colleague who would argue the exact opposite...
>Sure, we trade with the rest of the world alot, but the bulk of it is with the EU. The favouravle conditions made by being part of a freetrade area far outweigh the few penalties we have to pay.
Few penalties!!!!!!!
How many billions do we contribute every year! Also, I cannot believe that the EU would penalise the UK through trade tariffs so badly it would cost that much. The rest of Europe needs our custom as much as we need theirs. It might be a bit more expensive to get it from elsewhere, but not *that* much.
And when you say "most of our trade", it's just over half, I believe.
>A single currency is the way to go, for everyone, not just the EU.
Still not convinced.
>People wish to hold on to Sterling for mainly sentimantal reasons.
Too right.
>It might cost a little to implement,
Yeah right. It will cost billions. Not to mention the amount that retailers etc will rip off the unsuspecting public (like they did with decimalisation)
>and the dropping of imperial measurements.
I haven't dropped imperial measurements! I have no idea of my own height or weight in metric. 5'11' and 12 stone 7 lbs thank you very much. Not to mention MILES per GALLON.
> My only contention is that we should adopt the Dollar, not the Euro, as alot of international trade is already done in dollars.
Agreed. Better the dollar than the Euro. *If* we *have* to drop Sterling.
[This message has been edited by Jerome (edited 15 June 2001).]
15 June 2001, 12:36 PM
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Here's one...
Should we not be looking at the aftermath of the break up of the USSR and Yugoslavia to learn what happens when different cultures are forced together? Do we really have that much in common with the French and Germans?
I strongly believe in Europe for trade but nothing more!
ChrisB.
Should we not be looking at the aftermath of the break up of the USSR and Yugoslavia to learn what happens when different cultures are forced together? Do we really have that much in common with the French and Germans?
I strongly believe in Europe for trade but nothing more!
ChrisB.
15 June 2001, 04:38 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jerome:
<B>By the way, the EU has decreed that it will be illegal to use imperial measurements from the year 2009. Even for informational purposes...[/quote]
Even for road signs? I thought that could only be changed by a royal act or decree?
<B>By the way, the EU has decreed that it will be illegal to use imperial measurements from the year 2009. Even for informational purposes...[/quote]
Even for road signs? I thought that could only be changed by a royal act or decree?
15 June 2001, 05:13 PM
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So what if the road signs read in km rather than miles? The distance doesn't change...
I think some people forget that Queen Victoria died in 1901 and that we no longer preside over the world's largest 'empire'...
Jingoism and Xenopohobia are more of a threat than anything coming from the EU....
I think some people forget that Queen Victoria died in 1901 and that we no longer preside over the world's largest 'empire'...
Jingoism and Xenopohobia are more of a threat than anything coming from the EU....
15 June 2001, 05:27 PM
#30
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So why change them then??? Does it really benefit anyone if we change our road signs to km? Are we going to grind to a halt one day because our cars will not travel any longer on roads measured in miles?
This is just change for change sake (unless someone can give me a good reason why it should be done).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not xenopohobic. Just wish that Euro lot would stick to their own side of the channel.
Andrew, do you have no sense of national pride??