Si James

The government policy WRT banning guns (after Dunblane) has obviously not worked at all, and indeed it has backfired, as gun crime has increased greatly and legitimate sportsmen and women have been penalised unfairly.

Yet the government is now going down the same route again, trying to ban the use of replica guns and air weapons - are they frigging mad or what. Am I alone in thinking that this will not work?

Si

Jerome

I assume you meant to put "are" in the title (freudian slip?)

Anyway, once they've banned replica guns, we can look forward to gun crime doubling in the next 5 years.

Can they not see that criminals ignore legislation and this new law will make no difference to them.

How about more Police, less paperwork for existing officers and dedicated intelligience units that concentrate on gun crime. Sorry, that will cost money. Can't have that. No, we'll just make some ineffectual law and wack up another 10,000 speed cameras...

Mice_Elf

There's no point in stopping some madman with an AK47 when someone, somewhere is doing 31mph in a 30!!!

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I don't think they're nuts - at least, not on this particular issue. It sounds as though you're suggesting that extending the ban on guns could actually make more of them available to criminals; how could that be so?

Of course, ban or no ban, replicas and airguns will still be available on the black market, but surely if they become harder to obtain then that can only be a good thing? I feel sorry for the loss of shooting as a legitimate sport, but can't see that it really compares to saving people's lives.

Maybe the increase in gun crime has more to do with better security making it necessary. Ten years ago, a car could be stolen by breaking the window and hot-wiring it. Now it's easier to threaten the owner for the keys.

I don't ever want to be that owner - so I support the ban.

A.

boxst

Hello

They are only banning air-guns that can be easily converted into "real" guns -- like the Brocock.

Steve.

P1Fanatic

The majority of shootings in this country are with illegal guns. The two girls who got shot down on New Years Eve was with a MAC10 If Im not mistaken. This form of gun (sub machine gun) has never been legal in the UK so how can any form of legislation reduce the amount of these guns in circulation?

If the Govt cant reduce gun crimes by banning all pistols after Dublane then they do not get my support to ban anything they wish in an attempt to cover up their own poorly made legislations based purely on public outcry.

Simon.

P1Fanatic

AndyC_772 - I dont hear about that many car thefts at gun point. Most are with knives etc. So even if guns are banned they will still come after your keys with a big knife. Dont know about you but I aint going to argue if someone comes in my house with a large carving knife u can buy legally in your local tescos.

rik1471

What else can the government do? They have to be seen taking 'some' action. Albeit a bit lame.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

OK, let me rephrase the question. What's the benefit to society in permitting replica guns that can be converted into the real thing? Is it worth the risk?

P1Fanatic

The replica guns thing I have no issue with. There is no way they should be manufactured in a way that means they can be converted to fire real ammunition.

boxst

Andy:

For the "enthusiast". Personally I don't really see the attraction of owning an exact copy of a certain real gun.

When I was a child, I quite liked target shooting with my air pistol, but I didn't really care whether it was an exact replica or not.

So I wouldn't really be happy if they banned airguns for the hell of it, but exact replicas I can see the point...

Steve.

DanTheMan

So banning under 17 year olds from owning air guns stops drug dealers having turf war shootouts with submachineguns exactly how ?

Did those guys who killed the Birmingham girls think "oh I shouldnt be spraying innocent civilians with this illegal submachinegun as its a minimum 5 yr jail term if I'm caught"

DOH I think not, it really is a kneejerk reaction, only law abiding citizens abide the law, criminals don't give a monkeys and will obtain guns from their sources regardless.

And again its the law abiding citizens who suffer, after Dunblane when all handguns were banned, handgun crimes soared, so what was the point ?

Perhaps if we targetted the drug culture (dealers/users/burglars/smugglers) as was pointed out on the ITV gun special last night then the root of the cause could be eliminated.....

or we could ban under 7 year olds from owning water pistols ?

south-star

The best way to reduce the number of guns in society is to invent a camera which detects a person carrying a gun and fines then £500.Within weeks,....maybe even days,there'd be loads of them all over the friggin place.

And of course,they must be visible from your average walkway,not hidden behind lamposts etc...

scunnered

iTrader: (1)

The Dunblane incident should never have happened if the authorities had done their job properly. The following is an extract from the official enquiry;

1.6 In Chapter 6 I am concerned with the question - How was it that Thomas Hamilton came to hold the firearms and ammunition which he did on 13 March 1996? I set out the history as from February 1977 of the firearms and ammunition which he was authorised to and did acquire. In the light of the legislation and the official Guidance to the Police I examine the operation of the certification system by Central Scotland Police. I find that the reasons which were given and accepted for his being authorised to hold more than one handgun of the same calibre were unsatisfactory. The authority which he had for the possession of firearms and the acquisition of ammunition was renewed without enquiry as to the use which he was making of the firearms. The underlying reason for this was the unsatisfactory way in which the Guidance was expressed. His fitness to be entrusted with a firearm was challenged by Detective Sergeant Hughes in a memorandum of 11 November 1991 after the police investigation of the summer camp of that year. However, it was decided that no action should be taken against Thomas Hamilton. A similar decision had been taken in 1989 after he had behaved inappropriately in showing firearms to a family in Linlithgow. I reach the conclusion that in the response of senior police officers to the memorandum of Detective Sergeant Hughes an unduly narrow view was taken of "unfitness" as a ground for the revocation of a firearm certificate; and that in view of various considerations Deputy Chief Constable McMurdo should have made further enquiries. On balance there was a case for revocation which should have been acted upon. The same considerations should have led in any event to the refusal of Thomas Hamilton's subsequent applications for renewal of his firearm certificate. However, the eventual outcome would have depended on the outcome of the appeal to the sheriff which I have no doubt that Thomas Hamilton would have taken. The chapter concludes with some observations on what I regard as weaknesses in the system used by Central Scotland Police for the carrying out of enquiries and the making of decisions about firearm applications.

So it seems his firearm certificate should have been revoked.

Pete Croney

Apparently it was also decided that McMurdo and Hamilton's membership of the same masonic lodge had no bearing on McMurdo's decision to renew Hamilton's license, despite the above.

When Tony took everyones guns away, instead of crushing them, he decided to make a few bob to help with compensating (sic) the owners. So most of them were sold on the continent, flooding the market. With the european second hand gun market so depressed, is it any wonder that loads of them ended up back here in the hands of criminals?

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

I blame rap music - they talk about guns all the time - no wonder people will try and copy them.

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Don't be so narrow minded Christian!!

Next you'll be saying that:

Heavy metal makes people in to Satanists!
Dance music makes you take drugs!
Films and TV causes violence!

Any other sweeping statements you'll like to make!!!

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Forgot to mention in the era when The Krays and rival gangs ran round London, didn't they have guns??

So gang and gun culture???

I wonder what sort of gangsta rap they listened to???

chiark

No, I'm with the government on this one.

Take out replica guns and the police know that there's better justification for them to assume that what they're facing is a real, bullet shooting gun.

Gives more of an argument for the police shooting the suspect if you ask me...

south-star

Only if you listen to them backwards mate.....

..

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Not all of it is backwards!

And with the blatant sybolism, etc, etc.

I was pointing out that music is not necessary the cause!

I listen to metal (of varying kinds) and I don't think I'm a Satanist. I listen to dance music and have never touch ecstacy. I have watched violent films, but I don't kill people or get into fights. I listen to rap, but funnily enough, I don't own a gun nor am I in a gang!!

The Zohan

Chiark

If you point a gun, replica or not at the police they will use lethal force to stop you and rightly so

If you point a real gun at the Police you are f**king mad anyway.

If you point a replica then you are f**king mad and stupid beyond belief unless you really believe the loud bang will scare them away!

You can keep banning what you want, the problem will not go away because you do - where there's a will there's a way

P1Fanatic

Where do you draw the line? Lots of air pistols look like real guns. Should we ban them? My god u can even buy a plastic kiddies cap gun that looks like a revolver from distance.

blair

A greater deterent would surely be the authorisation of a shoot to kill policy to be used anywhere where someone is armed with a gun and has the potential to harm any other persons life.

I'd have thought that this would have a far greater deterent than a poxy 5 year jail sentence (probably reduced to 3 years then parole)

Such a policy would soon have brought that seige in London to an end PDQ as well. Christ knows how much that one has cost in police overtime since boxing day !

The Zohan

Regarding banning and such
Lets take this through with say knives.

They banned the 'Rambo' style knives from sale, stabbings continue the then ban knives with say a 6 inch plus blade - stabbings continue
do they then ban all knives other than plastic ones to eat your dinner with? what about stanley knives as well, these can inflict terrible injuries even death but are used by a lot of trades-people and such like, How about Scalpels? It is not the impliment it is the person using it that is the problem

People will make their own or get them from somewhere if the will is there then they will find a way.

Banning is not the answer, never has been, never will be!!!



[Edited by Paul Habgood - 1/9/2003 12:36:48 PM]

P1Fanatic

Agree with all your points there Paul.

Dave P

Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime, wasn't that the New Labour War Cry. So much for that, crimes of most type are up sharply and the Lord Chancellor seems to think that burglars shouldn't go to jail. Now that is tough talk.

Personally I have never been into guns, but I see no point in them in society. Therefore making the carrying of them illegal makes a certain amount of sense to me.

That said, I would wager that most guns used in crime enter the country illegally and the comment earlier that a gun in itself is not the danger but the human that fires it is, in my opinion is a little odd. If the gun wasn't there the human wouldn't have the choice to fire it.

Thus the only way to reduce gun crime is a zero tolerance policy on their import. To import fire arms illegally should carry a life sentance. However we need to be able to search out the stuff in the first place, which means increased funding for both the police force and customs and excise.

Not sure what this government is doing with all the cash they raise, because taxes as far as I can see have risen sharply although mainly through stealth, and the stream over the last couple of years should have been better as there are so few unemployed.

This means they have raised more tax without any improvement in any public service. For this they should hang. Bottom line is lets stop pandering to the Political Correct Lobby.

Why such a long speach when arresting someone, why should people get off on a technicality and so on...

I could go on, but I shan't you get my drift.

Dave

Pavlo

How?

They banned hand guns altogether (except black powder) so that in theory means there should ONLY be airguns and the like. This is not the case though.

Shotguns are not banned, not sure about pump action though.

'Banning' things is just what this government seem to do. It doesn't stop it happening though.

Drinking in pubs is illegal if you're under 18, but does that make it more or less appealling to underage drinkers?

Just another (bad) knee-jerk reaction.

Paul

Dave P

Sorry Paul didn't make myself clear. I was talking about gun running. Illegal import of guns. Thus we need to boost up customs, police etc.

Dave

Geezer

Surely the banning of guns or a shoot to kill policy are equally ineffective, the former for reasons already stated, the latter illustrated by any country that has armed police that will shoot to kill.

The rise in crime must surely be attributed to the decline on the UK police force. Mayor Guilliani made a large impact on crime figures in New York by one simple method. He put loads more police on the floor, where it matters. That proves that firearms are not the problem, and the polices ability to shoot poeple does not really have abearing on whether they will commit a crime or not. Criminals do not think of the consequences when they plan or commit a crime.

Sadly, I don't see our police force improving anytime soon, so I donn't know what the answer is, but it certainly ain't banning firearms!

Geezer